When divorce case involves criminal AND family law

When there's abuse or other criminal actions that are part of a divorce case, how do you know what kind of attorney to get? And where do you even start?

In this episode of the Modern Divorce Podcast, host Billie Tarascio talks with Keith Evans, former military attorney and prosecutor who now, at Modern Law, specializes in dealing with cases that may deal with Arizona Department of Child Safety, abuse situations and juveniles. Keith is a recent addition to Modern Law who talks about those issues, along with his past in the military and how he loves to do battle with bully attorneys who try to "paper" the other party with endless motions and expensive moves in order to beat one side into submission.

Transcript

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Billie Tarascio: Hello and welcome. Thank you for joining us today for another episode of the Modern Divorce podcast. Today I am here with one of our attorneys, the gentleman, the famous, the infamous Keith Evans. Hi Keith. 

How are you doing?

[00:00:55] Keith Evans: I'm fine. How are you? I asked you before. I'm so good. I'm so good. [00:01:00] You're always good.

Yeah. I don't think you have a bad day. Um, 

[00:01:03] Billie Tarascio: Not often. No. No. Most of the time I have good days, but you also seem to have good days. You are a man who is positive, experienced, and today we're gonna do this podcast and just get, let people get to know you a little bit more. So you're an attorney, so they tell me yes.

How long have you been practicing? 

[00:01:24] Keith Evans: Uh, for, I think, uh, my bar website says 19 years. So 19 years. 

[00:01:32] Billie Tarascio: That's great. That's great. You haven't started rounding up. That's interesting. I, I round up and I'm at 17 years and I, I always say like almost 20, so you could certainly be saying almost 20. Um, and Keith, what did you do before you went to law school?

[00:01:48] Keith Evans: Uh, before I went to law school, I was a paralegal. For like 14 years in Southern California. So I worked for like State Farm. [00:02:00] I did extremely boring things in a gray world. Mm-hmm. But, um, anyway, anybody's ever interested, cuz I have a lot of boring things I could talk about is, uh, state Farm has never fired anybody, which I always had.

Interesting. Right. So in 75 years they've never fired anybody. Now they'll make it. So you wanna quit. But they never hire anybody. 

[00:02:21] Billie Tarascio: Mm-hmm. That is interesting. No. Yeah. I was gonna wonder, like, do they just have great hiring? Screening tools? Or did they just leave people around who were 

[00:02:29] Keith Evans: terrible? No. Well, that, that could be some of that too.

But people are, uh, true believers for Ed Russ Junior fans out there. Yeah. So he was the c e O, his dad was c e o and then he was c e o and I think he still is, but they, uh, It's like a cult basically. Not to pick on State Farm. I, I enjoyed my time at State Farm, but anyway, I was a paralegal and I would do discovery, uh, all the time.

Mm-hmm. So written discovery. Mm-hmm. Digesting depositions. Mm-hmm. Uh, going on independent medical examinations. [00:03:00] Mm-hmm. So, anyway. Awesome. I you with that, I could bore you with 

[00:03:03] Billie Tarascio: that. Yeah. Well, you also have a career in the military. 

[00:03:07] Keith Evans: Uh, I do, I I just left the Navy, uh, two years ago, but, uh, Navy Reserve for all the salty sea dogs out there who gonna say, oh, well, what ship did he serve on?

Keith never served on a ship, so I was an Intel guy. And so, uh, anyway, I went wherever the Navy set me. So, to Naples or to Iraq or wherever. Um, so anyway, I was a nerd. Yeah. 

[00:03:34] Billie Tarascio: How many deployments did you face? 

[00:03:36] Keith Evans: Uh, three, I believe so. Uh, the best was Italy. Mm-hmm. Italy. Mm-hmm. Always. Uh, and they stationed me, well, I was in, uh, Naples, but I got to live what they call on the economy.

So put slowly for those who know, uh, the Naples area and, uh, then Iraq and then I tried for [00:04:00] Afghanistan, but they did something called demobilized. So, uh, That, uh, that stabbed me cuz we went through all this training at Fort Dicks in New Jersey and then literally I think two days before we were supposed to deploy, they pulled the plug so I never got to go to Afghanistan.

[00:04:17] Billie Tarascio: Wow. Wow. Okay. And you said you were in intelligence, you were an intelligence officer. 

[00:04:22] Keith Evans: In is, I never was an officer probably cuz I'm an underachiever. And uh, well that doesn't make sense. 

[00:04:29] Billie Tarascio: Don't they make lawyers, officers? So you didn't do Jag? 

[00:04:32] Keith Evans: No, in fact, it's funny cuz when I was in Iraq, I always remember this.

I was a place called Ramad, which if you're ever in Iraq, do not go to Ramad. But I was in Ramad and it must have been like really early in the morning. And some like high officials were there and I was there and they go, oh, what do you do civilian side? And I said, well, I'm an attorney. What the hell are you doing as is two in the Navy?

And I said, because I love it, you know, uh, is, [00:05:00] uh, and I think they like that answer, but maybe they didn't. Um, but I, I loved it because, uh, people know this enlisted people get to do a lot of other stuff that officers do not. I'm sure my mom would've preferred if I was an officer. Uh, JAG would've been probably the way to go.

But quite frankly, um, that's a lot of really. Boring stuff. So the boring stuff I did, I enjoyed. But um, yeah. Anyway, that, that's my, that's my rationale. 

[00:05:29] Billie Tarascio: All right. So you've got State Farm, you were paralegal, you decided to go to law school. Why did you go to law school? 

[00:05:36] Keith Evans: Because I hated to be pushed around by attorneys all the time.

So, um, attorneys can, it's much better to be, Yeah, it's much better to be a chief than an Indian. Not, not to, uh, you know, scouts can enjoy that stuff, but, uh, in terms of what I was doing, I was like, geez, um, why do I need to, you know, do this all the time? Like I said, discovery, when I could be in a courtroom, I could be [00:06:00] doing this.

And so, uh, and I worked through it. Throughout law school. I, I went to school, uh, on the weekends and night, which, if you're ever gonna go to law school, do not do that. Wow. So, three and a half years and, uh, very long, long years. Yeah. 

[00:06:16] Billie Tarascio: Law school's not easy. I, I cannot imagine doing it while also working a full-time job.

It's 

[00:06:23] Keith Evans: not good. You're 

[00:06:24] Billie Tarascio: a hard worker. You, you did not necessarily take the easy path. Your career is, I would say, interesting and varied. And how did you end up being a family law trial attorney? 

[00:06:37] Keith Evans: Uh, I really, uh, and I think I told you this before Billie, but anyway, is, um, I, when I left Gover, I was a prosecutor for nine years.

When I started off, I always wanted be a prosecutor. So I was a prosecutor, but then, When I left that after nine years, I said I want to get into a personal injury and then do criminal defense cuz I was a prosecutor [00:07:00] and so I started my own law firm and I'd say every other call. Was, well, do you do family law?

It's like, yeah, but do you do family law? So it's a tremendous demand for family law. Mm-hmm. And so I'm like, gosh, I, I have to learn about family law. Mm-hmm. And so, uh, luckily I had a mentor who kind of, uh, Guided me, let's put it that way. But becoming a family law attorney is kind of like, um, being a monk.

So you're always trying to obtain the higher learning all the time. Of course Billie knows this so people don't give family law the credit it's due cuz they're like, oh, it's just family law. But there's so many layers to family law that it is really probably, and I guess I'm throwing that out there, the most important area of law that you'll encounter.

Um, In my opinion, people would say criminal law, constitutional law, whatever, tax. But in terms of everyday [00:08:00] life, it, it, it's, it's gotta be family law and there's such a demand for it in Arizona, it's ju and I think it's gonna get, you probably know better than me, but, uh, I think I saw 4.8 million people in Phoenix Metro and it's growing.

So we're the fifth largest. It might, I think, become the fourth in a couple of years. So, You're 

[00:08:22] Billie Tarascio: absolutely right. So, so, so much demand. Um, it is, I mean, I understand criminal law, criminal law and family law are probably similar in, in level of importance because what we do literally has generational impacts.

Generational impacts, like the way that families operate. Affects not just their children, but their children's children and your relationship that they're gonna have with grandparents. And it's incredibly high stakes. So I agree with you. Those of us who do practice family law [00:09:00] understand that the stakes really couldn't possibly be higher.

And, um, you can practice family loss sloppily, but if you are, if you are really trying to achieve that higher calling, there's nothing sloppy about it. 

[00:09:15] Keith Evans: I would agree, but, uh, again, uh, seeing the, um, The growth of family law mm-hmm. Uh, is just a, and so with that, you get a lot of people, like you're saying, who just like, eh, I do probate.

I did this, I did bankruptcy last year. Family law, gimme a break. You know? And, and they'll have the forms and they'll just come into court and, um, it's, it's scary. Mm-hmm. So how 

[00:09:42] Billie Tarascio: long have you been practicing solely family law or primary family law? 

[00:09:47] Keith Evans: I wanna say 2011 or 2012. Mm-hmm. So 11 years straight.

Mm-hmm. And I, I, I should say in that I'll do juvenile. Mm-hmm. So, and that's, uh, [00:10:00] what people don't realize is the different realms, right? Mm-hmm. So, uh, juvenile law is a, a whole different animal to family law. It is. They, they intersect. And, uh, it, it's interesting where you have to explain to the family law judge what's going on in juvenile because people think that, I don't know that the judges hit a a button and they know what's going on in the other courts and they have no idea.

And so, um, anyway, yeah, I, I do juvenile law, but mostly for terminations. Um, some guardianships, things like that. But, um, Okay. That's great. 

[00:10:40] Billie Tarascio: So not a lot of lawyers do necessarily also practice in juvenile and juvenile law is. Just for those of you who are listening, it's when DCS is involved and they take custody or when a, um, child, a minor gets themselves in trouble.

That can also be juvenile law [00:11:00] or what we do mostly is the terminations. So terminations of parental rights happen in juvenile court, not in family court. Now. It's really nice when your lawyer can do both, because we've had cases where we. We were not getting good results in family court. There were, um, fathers in that particular case, there was a father who was incredibly abusive and we could not get the family court to stop parenting time, especially with the younger child.

But this dad had really hurt the older child and we couldn't get them to do anything. So we filed for termination in juvenile court. And what was really cool about that is it stayed the family court case. Now, can you explain what that means? 

[00:11:42] Keith Evans: That means that everything freezes. Uh, and it's interesting that you bring this up cuz this was a topic at the c l e where there is, um, I guess an opinion that the family court case can continue, which I disagreed.

And I, I, [00:12:00] everything's virtual. So I, I put in the chat box like, Hey, wait a second. You know, this is not, and they didn't take my question up, but so, I'm very curious, uh, to follow up on that, but I, I would say yes. So what people need to understand is, Uh, and this is for all the nerds out there is, uh, all the, uh, Arizona revised statutes are divided by numbers.

So for juvenile law it's eight, and for family law it's 25, and for criminal it would be 13. So you can Google all the, all the statutes are available online. But what a, a good judge will tell you is that the most important court in Arizona is. Juvenile court because that has power over all the other courts.

They're all superior courts. But, uh, whatever happens in juvenile court will, and including for criminal proceedings, it could possibly, uh, stop a criminal [00:13:00] proceeding. Oh, that's good to 

[00:13:01] Billie Tarascio: know. Yeah. Okay. So the, the other thing that happens in juvenile court are private dependencies. And so this, this comes up with third parties.

When a third party is trying to figure out how do I get custody of a child? They've got options. I. They can get third party rights in family court under Title 25. They could file a dependency or a guardianship in, um, juvenile court, or they could file for that guardianship in probate court. Now do you do 

[00:13:29] Keith Evans: all three?

I. I do not do probate court. I've noticed it in probate court. 

[00:13:33] Billie Tarascio: Got it. Okay. Yeah, voluntary, temporary guardianships are usually through probate court, so that's really the only time that we end up doing those voluntary, temporary, um, guardianships. Anyway, it's just interesting because they all have different, they're all different tools that we have to help get people to where they wanna go.

So we listen to their problem, we analyze like what are the options, and then together make a choice of what might be the best way to go. So you've got a [00:14:00] criminal background, you also do a lot of work with orders of protection. Yes. And that's kind of your wheelhouse, right? 

[00:14:07] Keith Evans: Well, uh, according to Modern Law, uh, now I've done I think around 13 or 14.

Um, Orders of protection, so contested orders of protection. And so that's my, uh, that's what I've done. Uh, I've also had some, yeah, I, I would say 13 or 14, so, mm-hmm. 

[00:14:27] Billie Tarascio: And how many years did you spend in criminal court? 

[00:14:30] Keith Evans: Uh, that would be nine years. Yeah. 

[00:14:34] Billie Tarascio: So, I think so, oh, go ahead. Nine years in criminal court, plus the 10 years in family court really makes you.

I think U uniquely qualified to do well in that order protection hearing. 

[00:14:48] Keith Evans: Uh, well, uh, I wouldn't disagree. Uh, there might be some judges who would disagree, but I will tell you for when I was a prosecutor, um, that my last [00:15:00] 14 months as a prosecutor I was doing, I was, um, sent to do juvenile prosecutions. So I thought that was really like a step down.

I thought that was being punished. Mm-hmm. And maybe I was, but I will tell you, out of the nine years I was a prosecutor, it was probably the most educational time I had in terms of what's going on in the community now. This is up in Yavapai County or Prescott. Um, But, uh, I was doing, um, the sex offender court.

Mm-hmm. So I never thought about sex offenders when you're talking about teenagers. Right. But it's a tremendous problem mm-hmm. Uh, in society that I was just oblivious to. Mm-hmm. And so, uh, just to deal with 13, 14, 15 year old sex offenders, uh, and to see what treatment they were going through and so forth was.

Really eye opening and, and other matters that are in juvenile court. So [00:16:00] again, Different realm in, in Title 

[00:16:03] Billie Tarascio: I. You brought that up because that is something that happens in family court a lot. A lot. There are many times when we will get, um, allegations or instances where we don't, we don't know. But maybe one child was molested by a stepbrother or a half-brother.

And I don't wanna even say it's only males, but like this is real life. And what you're talking about is the fact that you've had experience in all these different courts and then you, you bring that in with family court and it's messy and it's real life and it's complicated and it's high stakes. And I think that we are better office lawyers having those.

Perspectives and, and understanding the nuance and the complexity of these cases. 

[00:16:47] Keith Evans: Oh, by, by far I, I mean, I, I've been lucky. Like I said, I, maybe it was punishment to send me to juvie, a prosecution, but I even got to do a C L E, uh, for, I was with the county attorney's office [00:17:00] and, uh, a lot of the attorneys I worked with, you know, cuz nobody wants to deal with juvies, so they had no real clue about what went on and so forth.

So it, it was very enlightening. And I also went to, um, uh, the. It's kind of, if you see it off the 17 freeway before Happy Valley, if you're going north, you'll see it on the left-hand side. There's all this big building with um, uh, Bob Wire behind it, and that's where they send the really bad kids in Arizona.

They'll house. I think it's up to. 300. Wow. My kids up there. And so I got to do a, um, a basically a field trip there to find out what goes on there. Cuz I get you again, I passed it all the time, but didn't realize Adobe is what people just refer to it as. So. Anyway, I, it's in here in Maricopa. I if you, uh, not to depress people, but if you wanna see what's going on, Arizona's different that you can actually, [00:18:00] uh, view juvenile proceedings.

If we were in California, they're all sealed and you wouldn't be able to get in there. Uh, some proceedings here are, but you could basically, not to say do a field trip, but if you ever were at Durango, And that's, uh, kind of south Phoenix. You could basically go there on the second floor and sit through some proceedings and, um, might be, uh, might be a real reality show.

[00:18:25] Billie Tarascio: Most absolutely. Um, so Keith, what do you do for 

[00:18:30] Keith Evans: fun? Um, well I have three kids, so it's really what they wanna do for fun. So, uh, I have more boring stuff. I'm an elk. So I was at the Elks Lodge, uh, I think yesterday. Or two days ago anyway, at the pool there, or, uh, and I, I'm not from Arizona originally, Billie, but I love the, uh, public pools.

So, um, there is a public pool ne near me, [00:19:00] uh, paradise Valley, and I have to say, um, it really is, Anyway, so in the summertime waterpark, when everybody runs away, go there, but it's whatever the kids would do. Splash pad. I'm an old guy with young kids, so it's, it's what they would do, 

[00:19:15] Billie Tarascio: basically. An old guy with young kids.

How old are you? 

[00:19:18] Keith Evans: I am 58 years old. Wow. 

[00:19:21] Billie Tarascio: Yeah. Wow. So you're one of those guys that I, I never could really tell, you know. 

[00:19:27] Keith Evans: No, A lot of people could tell. They usually think I'm older, so they really? Yeah. Aren't you collecting social security, Keith? And I'm like, no. No, not 

[00:19:35] Billie Tarascio: yet. Okay. So you got kiddos, you run around chasing after them.

Um, and where do you see yourself in the next five years? 

[00:19:46] Keith Evans: At Modern Law, I hope so. Come up from Modern. Law. So, uh, one thing is we discussed is, uh, now there's a real push and I, I is for certification is that's where I would want [00:20:00] to try to be certified, because again, we're talking about like how everybody just jumps into family law.

But once you do, kind of like with criminal law, there's certain certifications for different areas of law. And I think it's a good thing that now people are really taking family law seriously and want to take it to the next level and to be certified. So for everybody out there that's that you study, you take a test, and you're very knowledgeable about the case law that's out there.

So that's the judge made law, because I'm not gonna pick on Arizona, but Arizona doesn't have, uh, I would say we are case law poor. In Arizona, which probably makes it easier for test purposes, but uh, for practice purposes, there's always these gray areas that if we were, say in California, and sometimes I'll use California law and judges here don't like that cuz it's just persuasive.

Mm-hmm. Um, that, uh, they've covered the different [00:21:00] areas that I'm like, we really need to fill in this gap. 

[00:21:03] Billie Tarascio: Right, right. Absolutely. Without, without, um, case law on a topic. We get to be persuasive. We get to argue, but it's harder to offer our client's certainty. For sure. I understand. Um, alright, last question.

What are your favorite types of cases, and also what are the cases that you prefer not to handle? 

[00:21:26] Keith Evans: Well, uh, it, it's the cases where it's, um, And I don't wanna say David versus Goliath, but we have a client that is really in need and the other side is just, um, I don't wanna pick on, especially in the podcast, I don't wanna mention any law firms, so I won't, cuz I don't wanna get in trouble.

But anyway, there's some big law firms out there that will just paper you and so forth. And if you have. A client that is working with you that really needs it [00:22:00] and you understand their plight, that just gives you the extra juice really to, to, for me, and I, like I said, is I like to handle, uh, I, if there's an order protection, if there's a family law case or even a juvie case, I like to, um, and, and I have had, um, criminal too.

So I've, I've represented somebody for three different, in three different, uh, Uh, courts one, you know, one client. So those are the ones I really, because I love being in one court and they're saying, well, we don't know what's going on. And I say, well, I'll tell you your Honor, because I was there last week and blah, blah, blah.

And so you kind of make the other side look really, uh, like they don't have a clue. Got it. But that doesn't happen all the time, so I love 

[00:22:47] Billie Tarascio: that. I love that. Well, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for coming on the podcast. If you all have enjoyed this episode or you're interested in working with Keith, give us a call at Modern Law.

We would love to help you and make sure [00:23:00] you download, share the podcast. And if there's anyone else that you think would be a good guest on the Modern Divorce podcast, let us know. 

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