Modern Divorce - The Do-Over For A Better You

Evaluating Sexual Deviancy With Dr. Jessica LeClerc

February 10, 2022 Attorney Billie Tarascio Season 3 Episode 25
Modern Divorce - The Do-Over For A Better You
Evaluating Sexual Deviancy With Dr. Jessica LeClerc
Show Notes Transcript

This very special episode of the Modern Divorce Podcast takes a deep dive into the potential outcomes of sexual abuse and sexual deviancy. These issues can threaten the break up of a family with potential long-lasting legal implications. 

Psychologist Jessica LeClerc, Psy.D., joins Modern Law Attorney Billie Tarascio to break down the common questions that arise in family law cases when someone acts out sexually or has a potentially deviant behavior that crosses the line both legally and morally. 

Dr. LeClerc performs the evaluations that help identify psycho-sexual issues for both children and adults at her clinic, Oasis Psychological Services in Mesa, Arizona.

What happens, for instance, when a mother accuses a father of sexual abuse? Or when a family member is addicted to porn? Or when a sibling acts out sexually with a younger step sibling? Dr. LeClerc explains how things can be remediated without calling in authorities, and the times when it helps someone get the help they really need.




Billie Tarascio: [00:00:00] Hi there. This is Billie Tarascio with the Modern Divorce podcast. So excited to be here with you all today to discuss one of your most pressing topics, sexual health, psychosexual evaluations, deviant sexual behavior, all the good stuff. And we are bringing with us a local expert. Dr. Jessica LeClerc.

Welcome to the show. 

Jessica LeClerc: Thank you for having me. 

Billie Tarascio: Absolutely. It's so great to have you here. Um, let's start [00:01:00] with like, how do you get into this sort of field? 

Jessica LeClerc: Um, by chance I went in to become a psychologist so I could do evaluations primarily. Cause I, I like evaluations more than conducting therapy. Um, Really the reason why is cause I like to be like Sherlock Holmes and kind of find all the pieces of the puzzle and put it together and, and then really inform the courts, kind of what's going on with any individual and what needs to happen to help them, change whatever is going on that is problematic in their life at the moment. I've always wanted to be in forensics. So that was never, never a problem. There cause there's lots of evaluations that are needed in the forensic realm. I just sort of fell into. Sexual deviancy and doing psychosexual evaluations for both the juveniles and adults.

Billie Tarascio: Yeah. Okay. So, there are so many things that we could [00:02:00] talk about. Uh, you do psychological assessments, you do psychosexual evaluation assessments. Let's talk about psychosexual evaluations because what is that? 

Jessica LeClerc: What is that? That is a good question. So when they are. Ordered by the courts. They are, there's really some sort of allegation of some sort of sexual deviancy or sexually problematic behavior for the individual.

And essentially there's a question of what's going on with this person, what's their behavior look like. And how does that impact their in, in the case of family court impact their ability to parents? Um, so what typically happens is we do a detailed clinical interview that covers your entire life. Um, that also gets done for a psychological evaluation. So in that case, they're similar. The only difference with this interview is that we go into all of your sexual behaviors as well, and much more detail about pornography use masturbation practices. [00:03:00] Any sort of sexual behavior you've ever read engaged in all the details about your partners?

Uh, so there's a lot more that gets covered than a psychological evaluation. And then, uh, we run a number of different tests. Um, the tests are. Uh, some of them are also included in psychological evaluation. So general mental health substance use. If that's a problem, uh, parenting for family court purposes, uh, if there is any sort of trauma history, we'll assess trauma, um, in any sort of domestic violence or anger issues, we'll assess anger as well.

And then with the psychosexual portion, again, we're looking at sexual interest in sexual, uh, Sexual behavior. So there's different inventories that we, we give to that people have to rate their arousal patterns to the different sexual scenarios. Um, we also look at, um, what we call [00:04:00] cognitive distortions or thinking areas.

So. Basically distorted thinking that supports engaging in maladaptive sexual behavior, there are inventories to assess that as well as to, to compare the individual to how similar they are to let's say, known sex offenders. So all of that gets put together. We review all of the records, uh, and if it's a quality evaluation, the evaluator will ensure they review all the records, all the allegations that are going on, pretty much everything that's been presented in evidence, the individual's mental health records, if they are available, um, put all that together, render a diagnosis if there is one and then provide treatment recommendations. 

Billie Tarascio: Okay. So what is to stop someone from just lying. 

Jessica LeClerc: Well, that happens all the time. Everybody lies, especially in forensic evaluations. Uh, there's always a motive to lie. So we have built in validity indicators on the tests, uh, to do that. Um, there's [00:05:00] also.

Well, the longer you do this the longer, you know, what's more appropriate and normal versus not, not normal, somebody lying. So if I'm a good psychologist, will challenge, challenge that in the interview to try to catch the person, especially if they changed their story, things like that. The frequently, we also include for adults at least, uh, a polygraph examination, uh, which is the standard for family courts.

 And it cannot be used in criminal court, but it does get used for, for therapy purposes and in for family court purposes, we're really looking at the allegations there. And frankly, if somebody is, as law is outright lying, they're going to get caught up on that. They'll the testing will look funky and they're not going to present well in the interview either.

So. Putting all those things together, then psychologists can kind of figure out, okay, there's clearly something going on. A person's being dishonest. We don't necessarily [00:06:00] know about what, but they're clearly being not totally truthful. So we would, we would discuss that in the evaluation. If they are being truthful, then they're not going to have any problem passing a polygraph.

They're going to be pretty open in their interview and their testing. We'll we'll come out appropriate. 

Billie Tarascio: Okay. So I had heard, and this may be a myth that you all hook up probes to various, uh, members and show them images to, to measure arousal. So is that a myth? 

Jessica LeClerc: So. Uh, well, it's, it's a myth as it, as it is applied to currently.

So that is called the FISMA graph and that used to be used on convicted sex offenders. Um, it no longer gets used. Now there are few cases for the, uh, the sex offenders that are committed to the state hospital indefinitely because they're that dangerous, the sexually violent predators, some of those individuals, um, do get that testing.

For various reasons, but that's on a case by case basis. Overall, the plethysmograph [00:07:00] is no longer used to be relying on the polygraph and other sexual interests, instruments that, uh, are frankly just on the computer. The person's looking at pictures and just typing in answers or whatnot. So it's a lot less invasive.

Billie Tarascio: That is much less invasive. Yes. And, and I think that that's important because it's going to make a court more open to ordering and evaluation. When it doesn't include such a physical violation, this is still an emotional and a mental violation, but, uh, but at least physically you're. 

Jessica LeClerc: Okay. Yes, it is taxing the, my average evaluations last about eight hours of face-to-face time.

Um, and that's that's with minimal breaks. So a lot of times this can be done over the course of a few days. I typically have the polygraph done on a completely separate day. That can be two to three hours depending on the person's history. [00:08:00] So, um, it is very, very taxing to do, but a proper one is that comprehensive.

Billie Tarascio: Okay. So let's get into some specifics because. As a family law attorney, I talked to a lot of clients who have concerns. And what I want to know is what we're going to play a little game, where I tell you the fact pattern and you tell me whether or not this is something that is concerning. Okay. 

Jessica LeClerc: Okay. 

So, um, fact pattern wife, and usually I'm just gonna say for this particular podcast episode, I'm gonna sound very sexist because in my experience, um, women are concerned about men.

And I really 

Billie Tarascio: have not seen the other way, except if women are prostitutes and, and I guess let's start with that. If a woman's a prostitute or a stripper or an only fans, uh, maybe prostitutes the bad term, and I should say sex worker, sex worker X for her. [00:09:00] Are they, is that sexually deviant behavior. 

Jessica LeClerc: It could be, it depends on if they're in a trauma relationship and they have a pimp, so it's, it's more, I would look more that way where it's more trauma and they're being forced into it.

If they are of age willingly, participants, they ensure that their child, uh, has a safety plan and they're, um, being watched appropriately the behaviors not occurring in the home, then no, it doesn't necessarily have to mean that it's going to impact their ability to parent. There are plenty of adult strippers that have children that are really great parents, um, and they have a good natural support system.

And that's fine. The, my bigger concern is a lot of times those individuals are also using drugs because, uh, because that type of work can be pretty taxing and substance use usually goes along with it. So in [00:10:00] that respect, I'd actually be more concerned about their substance use, um, than necessarily the, the sexually deviant behavior that could potentially be going on.

Billie Tarascio: Okay. What about. Um, multiple partners, multiple intimate relationships, moving in, getting very, very close with people very quickly. And then, and then cycling through relationships. Is that something that you would look at? 

Jessica LeClerc: So yes, that wouldn't necessarily really be under a psychosexual evaluation. We might be able to cover that under a psychological evaluation.

It would really depend on what the children are being exposed to. Um, there are plenty of people that live in multiple relationships and do so in a healthy manner. And it's, doesn't negatively impact the children. Uh, but again, if you know, there's porn on the television all the time and they're having sex in the living room and the kids are exposed to that, well, that's a much different story.

And unfortunately that does happen sometimes. So that could be covered under a psychological or a [00:11:00] psychosexual, depending on the details. And that's where the records I personally would want more of the records of the allegations. Uh, to determine what would be a better evaluation for that. 

Billie Tarascio: Okay. What about a polyamorous relationship?

Jessica LeClerc: That's the same thing that of the previous, previous one can not completely healthy, can be dysfunctional. It depends on what the children are being exposed to and other, other factors going on in terms of the sexual behaviors. 

Billie Tarascio: Okay. So how do you know. So for many people, they would look at a polyamorous relationship and say, that is deviant that's outside the norm.

It's not okay with me. Like, why would I want a sex therapist to tell a judge that that was healthy for my ex to do.

Jessica LeClerc: So it's outside of the norm based on pretty much religious beliefs. Um, and in terms of that, Most [00:12:00] religions teach marriage and relationships is between one man and one female. Um, but we know now that there are plenty of healthy adults that are two males, two females, there are polyamorous relationships where they're, uh, multiple combinations of those and they're perfectly healthy and fine.

It really depends on what's the actual sexual behavior going on and what's being taught to the children. we cannot, as, as evaluators, we have to remain objective and we cannot base our opinion off of, you know, what w a potential religion, or what would be the majority of society consider, um, consider to be deviant.

Billie Tarascio: We have to look at what science tells us. And it sounds like what makes something okay. Versus not okay. In your opinion, is do we have, you know, consenting adults where no one's being forced to do [00:13:00] something against their will. 

Jessica LeClerc: That is the very main primary factor. And then again, what sexual behaviors are the children being exposed to?

Billie Tarascio: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's great because that kind of gives us a, uh, a framework. Okay. Let me give you some other fact patterns. A woman tells me that her husband, is masturbating in public. Is that deviant? 

Jessica LeClerc: Yes. That's actually against the law, it's deviate and illegal. So in that, in that respect, um, a psychosexual evaluation would be, uh, would be recommended clinically. 

Billie Tarascio: Is it, can we infer or how do I make a claim that this is illegal deviant behavior?

And how do I show what impact that has on the child? 

Jessica LeClerc: Uh, well, that's the purpose of the psychosexual evaluation. So as, as an attorney, [00:14:00] you're going to look at, okay, my client is saying that their soon to be ex is engaging in X, Y, and Z behaviors. It's your job to know the law and say, are any of those behaviors illegal?

If they are. Then we might have to file a police report. We might, if the child was present during any of those, you might have to make a DCS call. Um, and, but in terms of what those behaviors and how they impact the ability to parent, that is the exact purpose of the psychosexual evaluation, which is why a judge would order that.

Billie Tarascio: Okay. And how do we stop a judge? Well, and this may be more of a lawyer question, but many, many times. Judges kind of just don't want to hear it and end up ordering equal parenting time. So is there any evidence or statistics that we can use as attorneys to show a judge no, it really is dangerous. Or is it just our argument?

Jessica LeClerc: I think it would depend on how [00:15:00] you argue. There is some research, obviously, if it's illegal behavior, You can solely base it on that. And I would hope that a judge would say, okay, this person is legitimately committing a sex crime and that's the allegation here. Um, that's potentially not safe to a child, so I would hope you would be able to make that argument.

 And you know, Use some of the data out there for that. But I've, I've had attorneys just call me in as an expert witness to argue and ask these questions of why an evaluation is needed. And I, that, that usually has made the judges once they hear my explanation, then they would order them. I will say that typically when one side in most of the cases, as we said, it's the fathers getting the psychosexual evaluations, then that's attorney typically will turn around and say, well, mom's unstable. And then the judge orders, a psych psychological evaluation on mother. So, um, that, that does happen a [00:16:00] lot in a lot of cases as well. Um, and you know, if, uh, I'm on the stand that I would give an opinion if I asked if, whether or not that's clinically appropriate.

Billie Tarascio: Got it. Okay. That's great. That's fantastic. Okay. Um, what about, so I could go into specifics, but it sounds like we've got a theme and the theme is if someone is committing behavior that is either in front of the children, uh, not consensual, um, or illegal, those are the triggers to get yourself a psychosexual evaluation.

I'm going to let's talk about porn. Okay. Um, what amount, what frequency of porn is normal. 

Jessica LeClerc: So, uh, well, child porn is never. Okay. So in child pornography, that happens a lot, unfortunately now with the, the internet. Um, and, [00:17:00] uh, depending if the police get involved or not. Cause I have had, um, some where it's been allegations, but then the evidence has been destroyed.

The computer itself was destroyed. So then we can't prosecute, but. Um, multiple witnesses can give reports in that respect. We would definitely ask for a psychosexual evaluation, even though there's not necessarily going to be any criminal charges, um, in terms of. I want to use the word normal porn or adult porn.

Um, I like to conceptualize porn as a same way, was what we would do for substance use. If it is impacting the person's relationships, their life, their ability to function. They're using it pretty much every day and can't get through the day without it. Then that's clearly a problem. Um, if it's causing, if it's not necessarily using it every day, but, um, if they they're using it at a frequency where it is disrupting, uh, being disruptive to relationships, then we would, uh, we would look [00:18:00] at that as, as well.

So, um, it really depends on, on the person. Um, My, my personal belief on pornography, just because I know a lot about the pornography industry. I'm, I'm not a fan of it at all. If you're going to have a healthy relationship, even if you're watching it together as part of your sex practices, there are other ways to stimulate arousal, uh, that don't involve supporting that industry.

 Because frankly, a lot of bad comes out of that industry. Even if there is consenting adults doing it. Um, so, but I do realize that other people don't necessarily have that belief and they, they use it together with their partners and it doesn't cause a problem. And that's fine in that case, it's not deviant and it's not an issue.

It becomes an issue when it starts to become problematic in other areas of their life. 

Billie Tarascio: All right. And then under this fact pattern, the wife is going to be saying, um, he was watching porn all the time. It [00:19:00] was a problem for me. Husband's going to be saying. I have no problem. Good to, I'm good to go. Uh, so that's one of those cases where you would need more facts.

Jessica LeClerc: Would need more facts in, I might recommend in that respect, um, especially if there's a lot of, he said, she said going on, um, there might actually be some more mental health personality dynamics between the two. In, in that respect, I might recommend a psychological evaluation for both parents and then assess in there if there really is a need for a psychosexual evaluation or the pornography usage can be covered under the psychological. So that would be more of a case by case basis. 

Billie Tarascio: Um, what, and what type of personality disorder or characteristics would lead to some, to that dynamic? 

Jessica LeClerc: Uh, a lot of times we have some antisocial issues going [00:20:00] on. Um, in some instances where they don't really care about the other person or care about anyone else for that matter.

So then we're looking at okay, where we , How is this impacting the dynamic within the relationship? We could have some narcissism going on, which is very common in family court. Uh, we could have some borderline or, um, histrionic traits where it's naturally problems in relationships and the attention needs to be on, on me.

If the attention is not on me, that causes a problem. So that's where we would look at at those those issues. 

Billie Tarascio: Okay. What about. In a marriage when wife says, you know, husband wanted sex all the time woke me up in the middle of the night was very demanding, forced it on me when I didn't want it. I can't tell you how common that is.

Jessica LeClerc: That that is very common. Yes. And unfortunately, especially in family court, that [00:21:00] stuff doesn't come out until it's, it's divorce time. And people really don't realize how, how common that is amongst relationships and marriages. Um, in, in that respect, especially if she used the word forced then I would recommend a psychosexual evaluation.

And, um, for mom, I would recommend the psychological evaluation to look at it. That's pretty traumatic. Do we have some trauma now going on in there? And how could that impact her ability to parent and then dad's sexual behaviors? How does that impact the ability to parent? 

Billie Tarascio: I'm glad you brought that up. Let's segue, let's say you, you have done your evaluation and you've determined, you know, let's start with narcissism because you're right, comes up all the time. Let's say you determine someone is narcissistic. How should that impact a parenting time and legal decision-making award. 

Jessica LeClerc: So with that, it depends on the degree of narcissism [00:22:00] because there are narcissistic adults who actually are very good parents because they see their children as extensions of themselves.

So they will go to the ends of the world to make sure that that kid's needs are met. Because if that kid looks bad, then it reflects poorly on myself. Um, so, uh, It really, it depends on the level of what's going on and then there's different. There's different traits within narcissism. That word that we would be looking at, if the person is truly self-centered and, and does not have that extension of the child of themselves.

And they're really not looking at things from the child's best interests, that's when it could potentially impact parenting time and legal decision-making because they're not necessarily going to make decisions. In favor for the child, they would make it in favor for themselves. And, and that impacts parenting.

Billie Tarascio: The other thing that I see a lot is [00:23:00] when you have those, those people that sure as heck are on that spectrum, you could just tell they're on that narcissistic spectrum somehow. And they do, Parent on a day-to-day basis in a way that is normal. They take their kids to school, they get them dressed.

They help them with homework. They, they care about their children, but they hate their ex. And so the decision making becomes very difficult and the conflict doesn't ever seem to resolve. 

Yes. That's 

Jessica LeClerc: where the co-parenting coaching and issues really need to occur. Um, I'm a firm believer in, in co-parenting couples counseling after the relationship has ended, uh, If, if they're not able to put aside their differences and come to terms to, to do what's in the best interest of the child, that is, that is a problem and will impact their parenting time.

So having a frank decision, a Frank talk with both parents and [00:24:00] say, acknowledge. Yes, this happens. We clearly don't like each other, but we produce these children together. And hopefully at that time when it happened, it was a loving, loving relationship. So at one time you both liked each other. So let's, let's find that.

And then put aside everything else, act like adults. And how can we come to come to terms? And co-parent, uh, appropriately. Easier said than done, but I do have a lot of parents, um, That are able to do it. Uh, but it does take, it takes post-marriage therapy. 

Billie Tarascio: I agree with you. I think it's a, I think it's a really, really valuable thing.

And the vast majority of relationships, even when there's a narcissist, have you seen that work? 

Jessica LeClerc: Yeah, again, it depends on the level of, of narcissism, but th the trick with narcissism is trying to get them to see if they change their behavior how does it benefit themselves? So [00:25:00] if you can figure out a way to, like, this is actually benefiting you and it's in your best interests, they're more apt to do it.

They're not going to do it for somebody else, but they will do it for themselves. So that's where you need a really good couples therapist that is skilled in that, but it can happen. 

Billie Tarascio: Okay. All right. Now let's say we've done the, um, psychosexual and it comes back that father is engaged in deviant behavior.

How does that impact parenting time and decision-making?

Jessica LeClerc: So in turn, it depends on when they're doing it. Um, so, and it also depends on the actual parenting, uh, parenting inventories that we do as well. Because again, you can engage in these deviant behaviors and still be a good parent. It depends on when you're doing it and how it's impacting the life.

So, um, if it's. Consuming [00:26:00] all of their, all of their time and to the point where that's potentially neglecting the child or not meeting the child's needs, then yes, that's going to negatively impact parenting time. Um, so what I would want to want to go into first to say, okay, as a cello child, been exposed to anything, if the child has not been exposed, and this is clearly, let's say a closeted deviant behavior.

Then I would want to look at, uh, having dad get some treatment, if it is assuming it's the dad, get some treatment, work through that, and then also increase the parent, the parenting time depended on the progress of treatment. So it would really go of, you know, what's the behavior going on and what's, dad's willingness to address said behavior.

Billie Tarascio: Okay. Well, what does treatment typically? 

Jessica LeClerc: Oh, this is good. So, um, because the problem is whatever comes back in court and I've had, uh, lots of attorneys get upset when I say they need to go through sex [00:27:00] treatment. Cause then they're like, well, my client's not a sex offender. Why I'm not calling your client a sex offender.

He's not convicted of a sex offense. However, He has engaged in sexually deviant behavior. That's potentially illegal and just happened to not get prosecuted. 

Billie Tarascio: It happens all the time, all the time. All the time. 

Jessica LeClerc: Yeah. So what the general public doesn't know is that the majority of sex is sex offenses are actually not even reported.

And of those reported. They're not even prosecuted. And the ones that wait at prosecution is a very, very small percentage. So there are lots of Americans walking around that have either been the victim of a sex crime or have perpetrated a sex crime and have frankly just gotten away with it. And the the perpetrator has never had any consequences. So, um, once we sorta come to that, uh, acknowledgement, and a lot of times that takes education on the professionals part to educate the [00:28:00] core and the attorneys of these exact statistics that I'm referring to. Um, then we say, okay, so had. in this case, we're saying dad had dad been convicted of the crime.

This is what the treatment would look like. Guess what the treatment's going to be exactly the same. It doesn't matter if the person's convicted or not. So the treatment is going to look at, okay, what are the thinking areas or thought patterns that we, that the individual utilized to justify that getting into in doing that behavior?

Cause that's going to be the, the major thing that we're going to look at, um, in therapy, because we need to change those thought patterns. Help the person to develop a good, solid relapse prevention plan to ensure that they cause our thoughts drive our behaviors. So we also want to look at, uh, okay. What led them down that road to begin with a lot of pornography addictions actually start because they're feeling rejected by their partner.

So, okay. Everyone, we're all sexual beings. Everybody has sex needs met. [00:29:00] If you don't have a healthy sexual relationship within, within your marriage. Somebody's going to turn to either another person and have an affair or some people. Really, um, they have the judgment and they go, well, I don't want to have an affair cause that's really wrong.

I'm just going to start looking at porn. And, but then the problem is then they're looking at porn every night. And then even if the wife wants to have sex, they're choosing the porn over the sex with the wife. And then, then we find ourselves in family court because that just is a recipe for disaster. If it never gets, never gets addressed.

So. Part of the evaluation and also part of the therapist's job is to figure out the why, what it was drove this behavior to begin with. Okay. Let's fix that. Um, and, and that's really what treatment is all about. 

Billie Tarascio: Okay. I mean, that makes sense to me, it makes sense to me because this is like any other behavior that you want to change. It's really not [00:30:00] that different from choosing to use drugs or choosing to, you know, have an eating disorder or whatever your coping mechanism is. But we know that that type of cognitive behavior therapy and changing your habits won't work. If you don't want to. So court ordered treatment for somebody who's like, I don't want to change my behavior doesn't seem like it would be. 

Jessica LeClerc: Um, it depends on their motivation because I I've had judges outright tell the parents, if you do not make progress in this, it is going to affect your parenting time. And you seeing your children I've had that happen in DCS court and in family court. And a lot of times that's the kind of a little light bulb that needs to go off and be like, um, okay.

Um, obviously this is an issue, so. Let's let's fix it. Cause otherwise I'm gonna lose my kids. 

Billie Tarascio: How long does treatment usually lasts? Let's say somebody is super engaged. They fell into a porn addiction [00:31:00] because they had a bad relationship and now they want to have a healthy relationship moving forward. Yay them. How long would that take? 

Jessica LeClerc: Um, it, it, it, it depends, but on average, like if they're super engaged in, they're doing, doing the work and it's a weekly basis, maybe six months, maybe nine months, it depends on the other factors that are going on. Um, because. Usually it's not just, you know, my wife stopped having sex with me.

There was other stuff going on. Um, what happens is, is the sex is really the red flag that everybody gets to talk about, but there's a lot of other stuff that came before that. So unraveling that and getting the person to accept responsibility for whatever, uh, dysfunctionally brought to the relationship that might have led to their decision to then go and do this deviant behavior.

Um, that's where it can get, it can change, um, the course of treatment to the length of time. 

Billie Tarascio: So I want to transition a little bit to a [00:32:00] harder subject, at least for me. Um, And that is when people suspect their children might be victims of sex abuse, but they have no evidence. So I had a woman who was in my office and she really wanted to get a divorce. And the, the relationship was not really safe, for her, but she suspected that her four-year-old was the victim of child sex abuse by the dad. The, the only reasons were dad had been a victim of sex abuse when he was a child by an older cousin or something. And then the child had engaged in some behavior that seemed abnormal to the mom. And I don't remember exactly what, what, what it was, but some of it didn't seem abnormal to me.

I have three boys and so they do a lot of touching and that, that didn't seem weird to me. But for some parents, they might think [00:33:00] that's super weird. 

Jessica LeClerc: Yes. 

Billie Tarascio: So I had to tell her, listen, if you really think that your child is a victim of sex abuse by your husband, I do not recommend you move out because at this point we don't have enough evidence at all. For a judge to take your hunch seriously. So please tell me what I can be doing differently and what these parents can do to, to suss out whether or not they have an issue. 

So this is where it's important for especially family law attorneys, to have a basic knowledge of normative sexual development and sexual behaviors.

We as humans are sexualized beings, especially under the age of five, uh, people don't want to talk about it and they certainly don't want to acknowledge it. But the, the issue is, is when adults look at, especially the under five behaviors, they, they sexualize it [00:34:00] and they think it has to do something with arousal.

Jessica LeClerc: It doesn't necessarily have to be, it is body exploration, which is normal development. So, uh, and then as the person ages, as the child ages, normal, you know, uh, can widen of what's what's appropriate and what's, what's potentially a red flag for being exposed to sex too early. So this is where it's really helpful for attorneys to have that basic knowledge and have, uh, education by.

Um, someone like myself or any, any other sex therapist I can teach them about, okay, this is what's considered normal. So then they can calm their, their clients and say, Nope, this is what that that's normal, but just keep an eye on it and see if anything else happens or whatnot, and try to. Calm the parent, the overwhelming majority of adults never had, especially now never had proper sex education.

Nobody ever really sits down and teaches people. [00:35:00] Okay. From, from birth to two, this is what we're going to see the person engaging in that's considered normal. Body exploration, things like that. And this is what happens from two to five. And this is what happens from six to 10. Nobody has that course. Um, so unless you work in this field, it's literally just not common knowledge.

It shouldn't be. 'cause a lot of this stuff would, uh, save a lot of resources, frankly. Um, because we do have some parents that instead of calling their divorce attorney, um, they're calling the police and now we're opening up a full police investigation off of what is literally normative child development.

Um, and, and that's a waste of resources. Um, Especially during this time. So I think it's really important for attorneys to have that. And if they don't, this is where you have a, uh, you can send your client to somebody like myself or a sex therapist, so they can have one [00:36:00] session of like, okay, this is, this is what we're looking for.

And keep an eye on this and go from there and see what happens. Um, so. I have the another part. So the suspicion that, because somebody was sexually abused as a child research has proven over and over again, just because you were abused sexually abused as a child does not make you an offender. The actually overwhelming, uh, amount of convicted sex offenders as adults were never sexually abused as a child.

So that right there, that, that misinformation, that the general public has is, is very problematic because it, um, it's just false. 

Billie Tarascio: That is such helpful information. Because that is a, a pervasive theme of, you know, so-and-so never processed what happened to them. And therefore I think they're a danger or whatnot.

So that is such crucial information. Let's talk for just a [00:37:00] minute. About what is normal and when your child's behavior should, um, set off alarms and what to do when you're on the fence, because we don't really want to invite DCS into our homes unnecessarily. Like if it were my children, I would want to figure it out myself.

I would not want to call DCSS. So tell me, like, what do we look for? What are red flags? And what's. 

Jessica LeClerc: So red flags we're looking at is, is the child, uh, engaging in these behaviors? Let's say if they're school-aged and they're engaged in these behaviors or at school, that could be potentially a red flag because they should be focused on school.

So, okay. They're clearly distracted by some sort of sexual behavior in normative sexual development. Those behaviors don't necessarily occur in school. So we're looking at that and same thing at, at daycare. Um, the problem is for, for birth to five, we have just lots of body exploration, um, [00:38:00] touching themselves and, you know, um, I see lots of daycare kids, um, you know, lying, lying face down on the floor, especially boys.

And they're sorta like, you know, rubbing like this and they're stimulating themselves. Well, I mean, it's a form of masturbation, but it's not the same as what we would. Conceptualize it as adults. Um, but that's them getting to learn, learn their bodies, but it's up to the adults to, you know, teach them and mold that behavior and say, no, that's not appropriate to do in the middle of the classroom.

Um, you know, things like that, um, in terms of, you know, playing doctor, uh, again, there's lots of that, that goes, goes on. I actually do a lot of psychosexual evaluations on juvenile. For these things. Um, what we're looking at there is age differences, um, cognitive ability. So, um, you know, if one might be older, but let's say a lower functioning than [00:39:00] they're really functioning at the younger age.

So. Is the behavior fitting in? Well, what we would expect for normal development there. Um, anything that has to do with porn is going to be a red flag. Um, there, unfortunately now the average age for looking at porn first being exposed as age 10, um, which is fourth grade, which it's only going to get younger, unfortunately with the internet.

Um, So we do have kids that are talking about porn at school, because maybe they had an older brother that showed it to them and then they talk about at school. So then this kid comes home and you know, Google's the word sex. And then all of a sudden mom is saying, oh, that you got that dad's house. Well, no, the majority is that's at school.

It's within normal normal stuff. This is where we have to now have a chat with. Okay. What is in this house? What are we going to talk about for our sexual beliefs? What's okay. [00:40:00] Um, at age 10 pornography is never okay. So having them be exposed to sex that early, that's never a good thing. So we want to have a open conversation about that.

Um, possibly find out the other children that are in this school that are where the kid found that stuff out. But the bigger issue is. The general public doesn't tend to know these, these things. So again, it's looking at, okay. Get, get more facts and find out what other potential areas this kid was exposed to.

And not maybe just at dad's house. Um, cause a lot of stuff happens at school. Uh, myself and another doctor in a practice, we consult with a lot of schools because there's a whole lot of porn and being looked at at school when they should be in math class. Um, so, um, it, it does, it does happen and, and that's really the early introduction.

It's not that the kid is being sexually abused by the other parent. It's that they're going to school. And looking at porn. [00:41:00] Um, so if the child outright says something of like, they're not comfortable talking, going over to dad's house, we want to find out why, what they don't like about it. If there's hesitation, if we're looking at behavior changes, let's say they go to dad's on the weekend.

If the child becomes very, um, You know, kind of emotional or maybe super distant, or we see a change in their then their behavior right before, right after those are red flags that something's potentially going on at that house. That's making that child uncomfortable. We would want to look at that. Um, So it's really a lot of, a lot of red flags to look for.

And unfortunately, so it's a matter of being a good detective and figuring that stuff out. 

Billie Tarascio: So, oh, hard, depending on the age, because I think if you've got a, you know, a 12 year old or a 10 year old, You can probably just, I would probably have them show up at your office. [00:42:00] Yep.

Jessica LeClerc: Uh, and, and some parents do that. Um, if they're, if, if they just want a consultation or for therapy or what. before we get police involved or things like that. The nice thing about going to a therapist, we are mandated reporters. So if the child discloses something, it is going to get reported, but otherwise, if they, if they don't, it stays private and within the family, um, that happens.

That, that can happen a lot. Um, so it's really kind of figuring out, okay, what's this child normally like, um, and what is normal development? And then what are the changes that we're seeing compared to both of those, those things? 

Billie Tarascio: Okay. Um, Yeah, we could talk about this for so long. Another thing that comes up a lot that is really hard on families is when families are divorced and blended, and there comes an allegation where a [00:43:00] step child is abusing or, you know, sexually acting out with a child, you know, what do you suggest under those circumstances? 

Jessica LeClerc: Okay. I do those evaluations at least once a week. Like that's how common this is. Um, so in that respect, it's not the parents getting the evaluation. It's it's the older child and we would, depending on the age, do a psychosexual evaluation. Um, or a psychological evaluation, if they're under 10, we don't really do psychosexual evaluations below the age of 10.

Um, but we would still, you know, look at the behavior and whatnot, but in terms of the actual sex test and things like that, um, most of them start at age 12. So, um, we would be doing the evaluation on that child, um, and figuring out, okay, what's going on here? What's already happened. And then they get [00:44:00] that kid in the treatment, the majority of kids, the overwhelming majority of kids that engage in sexually abusive behaviors =Once they get caught, they never go on and do it again, even in the absence of. Um, treatment really just helps to solidify that it's not going to happen again and, uh, helps to teach them healthy, healthy relationships, and really addresses the reason the, the why for the behavior. Again, we're going back to the Y uh, Usually there's something else going on, um, for that child.

And it's not necessarily, you know, a sex addiction is, um, you know, and, and they have to have sex. There's something else going on that sex was fulfilling that need, uh, and that's what we would address in the treatment. 

Billie Tarascio: I think this like is worth us taking a second on, because what you just said is when teens or [00:45:00] tweens are engaged in sexually deviant behavior, the vast majority of the time that behavior can be corrected.

Jessica LeClerc: Yes, 

Billie Tarascio: it is the impulse that parents have to hide. That is much more problematic than calling it out and addressing it because teens make dumb decisions. 

Jessica LeClerc: Yes. All the time, 

All the time in every 

Billie Tarascio: aspect. But when they make patterns, decisions, when this becomes a coping mechanism or a, you know, that that is dangerous.

The reason I say that is because parents are afraid their kids are going to go to jail. Parents are afraid that they are going to be labeled. Parents are afraid they're going to lose parenting time with their other children. And so this becomes something that shuts families down. 

Jessica LeClerc: Yes. Um, and unfortunately in some cases, some or all of those things happen, um, but it really depends on how early you address it.

[00:46:00] Um, And what happens, unfortunately, some of the juveniles they are going to get prosecuted that that's that's, that's just it. I mean, I, I do, um, I hold a state contract for doing, uh, juvenile probation, psychosexual evaluation. So, uh, in the vast majority of those, the victims are younger siblings or step siblings or somebody else in the house.

Um, and they do, you know, they do have those, those legal consequences that said that does not mean they're going to go on to be an adult offender. The nice part about getting the legal system involved is it then opens up a door to a vast array of services to make sure that this kid gets the help that they need, versus if you took it in house, um, you might not get the same services because you're in, maybe you can't afford that.

A lot of us don't take insurance because insurance doesn't cover a lot of this type of therapy because of the duration it [00:47:00] takes to fix it. Um, so you gotta pay out of pocket. A lot of people don't have that kind of, that kind of money. Um, you know, to see a psychologist for therapy, you're looking at 150 to $200 an hour.

You're going to do that once a week. That's a lot of money. That's a car payment for some people. So, um, you know, if you can't use your insurance, then okay, then the child's not going to get the help that they need. Then the behavior is going to continue and then it becomes more problematic. So when you look at it that way, sometimes having the legal system involved is actually better because probation will ensure that this kid gets the help that they need and the services that they need to.

And if they do probation correctly, they can, uh, petition to get their record expunged. The state of Arizona records are automatically expunged at age 18 like other states are. So that does have to be a petition and get an absolute discharge, but it is this many kids that do when they go on to live very productive [00:48:00] lives.

Um, I provided treatment to, and a number of kids that are now, now adults. And they are very successful going to college, graduated have families of their own, um, and are doing really well. And, you know, They made of at age 11 or 12, did something very inappropriate, but guess what? That doesn't mean. They're going to do that behavior when they're 26.

So, um, we need to make sure that they get the service that they need so we can fix the behavior. So same thing as substance abuse, um, What's interesting is parents are more likely to talk about and be okay with, oh, my kid has a drug problem. Well, it really, we have to look at sex as just another drug. Um, cause it does, especially pornography, especially impacts the brain very similar to cocaine.

We have lots of research on that. Uh, so when you, when you think about it as well, if I look at this as a drug problem, [00:49:00] That's okay. We're going to do the treatment. And as long as we keep them sober, we're going to be fine. Right? there's plenty of people that are recovering alcoholics that are very successful individuals.

There are plenty of people that are not well, same thing with sex offending. 

Billie Tarascio: Certainly the earlier you intervene, the more likely you are to be successful. 

Jessica LeClerc: Yes, exactly. So, but there are a number of times where the kids don't get prosecuted. Um, I actually just finished up a case where parents are called me.

Um, they did the right thing. They did call DCS immediately cause it was a blended family and it was. You know, the adopted son against the new half sister. Um, and that happened, happens a lot, but DCS didn't, didn't take the case because the parents did everything they could. Um, they set up a good safety plan, put cameras up and did everything they needed to do to protect both children.

So DCS said, okay, well, they moved on. [00:50:00] Police, you did everything you needed to do. We're going to look at this, the county attorney for whatever reason, didn't want to prosecute, move on, get the kid help. Okay. Now I, I do, uh, come in and do the evaluation, say, okay, this is everything that's going on. Here's the treatment yet him get him this and he should be.

Billie Tarascio: Um, I have one more question. So if, uh, if let's take that situation, which is pretty common, you've got two children, you're looking at protecting all of them. Uh, if DCS is fairly easy to work around, you have to take steps to make sure and ensure and show. That your children are safe. That might mean separating them.

It might mean you never have them on the same parenting time. It might mean cameras. It might mean all sorts of things. That's fairly easy if you want your child in treatment. And that involves them making admissions that can be used against them criminally. How does that work? Can you, can they [00:51:00] get treatment that is confidential?

Jessica LeClerc: Um, yes, because. If it's already been reported to the police and the police have now decide for whatever reason, not press charges. Um, then, then it's fine that it's completely confidential and you're the owner of their medical records. So it's just like going to therapy any other time. And you know, I'm not going to disclose these records to anyone else without your permission.

Um, and that's typically what, what happens, um, 

Billie Tarascio: can the criminal court get your records? 

Jessica LeClerc: No, not without a subpoena or the parent portal, pulling it up, I'm signing a release to allow it to, to be released. 

Billie Tarascio: It's quite the conundrum. 

Jessica LeClerc: It is. It's, it's really, it's really a gamble. But for, for parents that are in there, the biggest issue is protecting both children because.

One [00:52:00] definitely made a very bad, bad mistake, but we have to realize that. There are a child in there. It's a mistake they're going to make mistakes. Um, unfortunately some of the mistakes have bigger consequences than others. Um, but we still have to remember that that child has emotional needs and needs to be parented and loved and protected.

Just as much as the victim, we should not be choosing one child over the other. And that's where it becomes really hard of ensuring the safety for, for both. And this is where consulting with a professional to help set up our safety plan, um, getting each child and treatment as what they need to do. Um, that is very, very important.

Um, To do it for parenting time. A lot of times you recommend, okay, let's just flip flop the parenting time, and these kids are never together. Um, that's the bonus part of a, of a blended [00:53:00] family, especially if we have the step siblings. Cause they're like, okay, this one is that when, when Johnny is with dad, Sally is with her dad.

So they're just never together on the same weekend. Um, you know, we just kinda work around the parenting time, that way to ensure that they are not together while the kids are going through treatment. Eventually, ideally what happens is then we do victim clarification where the, uh, the perpetrator and the victim do treatment together to repair that relationship.

And then we help bring the family in and get everybody on the same page. Fix the family relationship and family dynamic. And then we go on and, and hopefully everybody, um, resolves everything in, in more healthy that's that's the goal is to have a healthy family relationship, whatever that may look. 

Billie Tarascio: Well, Dr. Leclerc, this has been a fantastic and tremendous episode. I really appreciate your time, your knowledge, your Frank discussion, [00:54:00] um, make sure that you like and subscribe to the Modern Divorce podcast. Let us know what other questions you have. If you have questions for Dr. LeClerc, send them in. I would love to have her on again.

Thank you so much. 

Jessica LeClerc: Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.