Pop artist Britney Spears, at 39, is still not in charge of her own life. The #FreeBritney movement, spurred further by a New York Times documentary airing on Hulu, looks at why she is still enduring a court-sanctioned conservatorship managed by her father, and whether her adult rights are being unfairly or criminally curtailed.
In this fascinating episode of the Modern Divorce podcast, family law attorneys Billie Tarascio and Darin Colburn of Modern Law break down the areas that make them suspicious of - even angry at - these arrangements, and how they'd approach the situation as attorneys. In fact, the conservatorship, and her father's behavior, has been used against her, to limit her time with her own children.
For anyone who is following the #FreeBritney movement, or is interested in the effects of conservatorships in family law, this is a must-listen.
Pop artist Britney Spears, at 39, is still not in charge of her own life. The #FreeBritney movement, spurred further by a New York Times documentary airing on Hulu, looks at why she is still enduring a court-sanctioned conservatorship managed by her father, and whether her adult rights are being unfairly or criminally curtailed.
In this fascinating episode of the Modern Divorce podcast, family law attorneys Billie Tarascio and Darin Colburn of Modern Law break down the areas that make them suspicious of - even angry at - these arrangements, and how they'd approach the situation as attorneys. In fact, the conservatorship, and her father's behavior, has been used against her, to limit her time with her own children.
For anyone who is following the #FreeBritney movement, or is interested in the effects of conservatorships in family law, this is a must-listen.
[00:00:30]Billie Tarascio: [00:00:30] Hi there. This is Billie Tarascio with the modern divorce podcast. Back again with attorney Darin Colburn for our latest episode on what's going on with celebrity divorces today, we're taking a little bit of a different turn and we're going to talk about Britney Spears and the free Britney movement.
[00:00:47] This of course has been fueled by the latest. New York times documentary that has aired on Hulu called framing, Britney, Darin, how you doing? And welcome to the show.
[00:01:00] [00:00:59] Darin Colburn: [00:00:59] Good. I'm doing great. I watched the documentary last night. Brought me back to, to the good old days, you know, but I was, I lived, you know, I grew up in the nineties when Britney was a, was a huge star.
[00:01:14] Billie Tarascio: [00:01:14] Absolutely. And I'm really sorry. I was, as I was thinking about us recording this, it's really interesting because I'm 40, Britney's 39. So we are we're the same age, essentially. And you are 30, right?
[00:01:26] Darin Colburn: [00:01:26] 31 31.
[00:01:28] Billie Tarascio: [00:01:28] So, you know, we've got, we've got an interesting and different perspective probably on what, what it was like in the nineties for Britney, how you saw Britney might be different from how I saw Britney.
[00:01:40] And one of the most interesting things about this documentary was looking back at what we all remember and just sort of cringing.
[00:01:48] Darin Colburn: [00:01:48] Yeah, no, the cringe is so real. That was the word that I would use. And the other thing is , I don't remember noticing the cringe. Back then. I mean, [00:02:00] obviously I was, I was a lot younger, but as far as I mean, some of the questions that she was getting asked during interviews, w I mean, my wife and I literally needed to rewind it at one point because the interviewer asked her about her breasts and we were like, do we do that really just happen?
[00:02:16] Like, I mean, he's so inappropriate. But yeah, that's exactly what happened. And she was obviously very uncomfortable. And you know I think you, you pointed out in a prior discussion about this old guy asking her when she was like eight, if she had a boyfriend. Oh, what about me? I mean, it's just all just bizarre and weird.
[00:02:34]I do remember, you know, the music videos and all that stuff, so, and I definitely had a crush on Britney. There's definitely, you know, that aspect of it. I remember. Her and Justin Timberlake and all of that kind of drama. But looking back on it, it's very, very, very cringy.
[00:02:51] Billie Tarascio: [00:02:51] It's cringy. It's sad.
[00:02:53] It's despicable. Like part of our culture is just, I think there's sort of this collective like [00:03:00] remorse that, that we feel for how we treated Britney, but it's, it's simply not that simple, you know, it's, it's a complicated thing. She was. Pushing a lot of buttons and a lot of boundaries. And who knows how much of that was her and how much of that was the machine behind her that was profiting from her, but she took the brunt
[00:03:23] of that.
[00:03:25] Darin Colburn: [00:03:25] She did. And I mean, I mean, she started her career as an entertainer and basically from a very, very young age the documentary walks us through that process. And her, she, she came from a very kind of poor background, so to speak and to the point where like trying to get her a voice coach was, was.
[00:03:46]Challenging financially for her parents and even like traveling to, to meet with some of these people was financially challenging. And there's just so many things that, I mean, it's hard, there's so many different things to talk about to kind of piggyback [00:04:00] on something. You said. One thing that stuck out to me was one of the statements from, from a potential lawyer we'll get into that later.
[00:04:07] But he said, look, we don't know what we don't know.
[00:04:11] Billie Tarascio: [00:04:11] Again, and again, he said that.
[00:04:13] Darin Colburn: [00:04:13] Yeah, because it's an entirely, it's entirely true. There's a lot that we do know. Right. Because she's been in the public eye for decades. And. They got into the prop Roxy and all of that, which I think is worth discussing.
[00:04:30]But there's also a lot that we don't know. And that's gonna apply to her conservatorship and her family law case and situation, really her mental condition. It just really, but the situation is on its face, bizarre enough that it's created this whole movement of, of people that want to free Britney.
[00:04:49] So
[00:04:50] Billie Tarascio: [00:04:50] I certainly want to freak Britney doing you want to free Britney?
[00:04:54] Darin Colburn: [00:04:54] Yeah. I didn't even know that Britney was not free to be honest. And I think a lot of people were unaware of [00:05:00] her situation prior to this documentary. So I guess it makes sense to kind of start there because I'm sure everyone remembers when she shaved her head.
[00:05:11] Right. And. There was kind of this. And I remember that as a, as a kid, I have no idea what, what age I was, but I would have been young. And I remember that and kind of thinking in the sentiment was okay, Britney is going crazy. Right. Right. And looking back in terms of the cringe, you can totally see how anyone in her position would
[00:05:32]feel a lot of, lot of like, there'd be a lot of pressure from a mental health standpoint because she couldn't go anywhere without being under a microscope. And that was true pretty much for her entire. Developmental years. I mean the paparazzi's level of involvement with her is insane.
[00:05:49] And it's because, I mean, they got a, they got a candid photo over that was worth a million dollars. Right. So anyone could do that. Right. It didn't. You just know, you don't have to go to school [00:06:00] to follow a celebrity. And this was before the rise of the internet, which is interesting because this problem, I think, still exists today, but it's a lot less magnified because people post.
[00:06:11] They basically share their lives with with their fans on Instagram. So if you know, if somebody's posting hundreds of photos a year that, that photo then walking down the street is not going to be as valuable. That's a great point. Yeah. So I think that's interesting. And even the. But basically, you know, she couldn't go anywhere without, without people talking to her, interviewing her, taking photos of her.
[00:06:35] And she was she was involved in this dispute, you know? Well, first of all, she had a relationship her formative years. I mean, she was very sexualized. Right. Sexualized. That is what is clear. Looking back from the documentary. It was certainly clear at the time, like I remember as a kid. Thinking Britney was really attract, like, you know having a celebrity crush.
[00:06:54] Right. But what is what I didn't know and what is weird? Like, because the [00:07:00] media, like the amount of attention she was getting. Means that a lot more people than, than just, you know, young, young kids were interested in Britney in a, in a sexual way. It was like, literally everyone talk, show hosts. I mean the whole is this whole cottage industry.
[00:07:15] Right. And she had to deal with all of these all of this objectification. Right. And you could see where she would develop I mean, one of the points they made is like she cut her hair because that was her saying that, you know, she's basically trying to opt out of this whole objective case. Oh.
[00:07:34] And then
[00:07:35] they won't stop touching me. She was getting basically assaulted all the time. She had no boundaries, no, no space, nothing was respected. And one of the things that you said is, is important. She came from a family that was unsophisticated and it reminded me as I was watching this a lot with [00:08:00] very similar to what happened with Justin Bieber.
[00:08:02] You have these, you know, Justin Bieber was born to a single mom and then was taken under the industry's wing and exploited and promoted all of those things at once blew up. But then we had to watch him figure out how to become an adult in front of us. And that those were some Rocky years. And the same thing happened to Britney.
[00:08:21] Britney was a young girl. We all make dumb decisions as a young person, but most of us aren't followed around on a daily basis. So.
[00:08:30] To millions and millions of dollars, I mean, right,
[00:08:34] right, right. Yeah. You don't have the money, you don't have the power, you don't have the oversight. And so, but we've watched this happen to celebrity after celebrity over time.
[00:08:42] Right? It is not unusual that Britney went through some rough years. What's so, you know, nobody took conservatorship over Justin, Justin Bieber, or drew Barrymore, or even Lindsay Lohan who also went through. You know, very public
[00:08:58] struggles. I think [00:09:00] they did get Amanda Bynes though.
[00:09:01] Did they, did she, is she under
[00:09:02] conservatorship?
[00:09:04] Yeah, I don't know if they have a conservatorship and not to go off on a tangent, but yeah, she's got some kind of there's some place. Interesting,
[00:09:12] Billie Tarascio: [00:09:12] interesting things from a divorce attorney's perspective was that it seems like if she wasn't going through a custody battle, She may not have entered into a conservatorship and the pressure of the custody battle absolutely impacted what she was.
[00:09:32] Facing
[00:09:33] Darin Colburn: [00:09:33] right. And that's the, that's one of the first strange points is that because she consented to the conservatorship. Initially you have to talk about the timing of that. And I think it's also important, like in this, in this discussion of how she was objectified in the media, I mean, her relationships with.
[00:09:51] With men were always scrutinized very, very heavily starting with, you know Timberlake famously and you know, she, again, she came from a an [00:10:00] unspecified background. She had portrayed that she wanted to. Be a Virgin until she was married and then Justin Timberlake. I don't know if you remember, but I, I remember this, I mean, he, basically someone asked them on the radio, like, have you guys had sex?
[00:10:13] And he, he kinda like snickered and was like, yeah. You know, and then like, I mean, Going through that experience. I mean the dynamic in her relationships in the media was always, probably really uncomfortable. So that translates to she, you know, started dating and got married to, and had kids with one of her backup dancers, Kevin Federline And about the time that she cut her hair.
[00:10:37] Right. She the time she cut her hair he started raising issues from a custody standpoint. They filed the, you know, I can't remember the exact. Timeline. Do you know if he filed for divorce before that? Or she
[00:10:48] Billie Tarascio: [00:10:48] filed for divorce. Okay. He asked for silica. Right. Then things went crazy. Right? When things got really, really hard.
[00:10:57] Now, every move she made with [00:11:00] regards to her children was heavily scrutinized. Now she was an unfit mother because she had her baby sitting in her lap in a car.
[00:11:06]Darin Colburn: [00:11:06] Yeah,
[00:11:08] Billie Tarascio: [00:11:08] it just, it just got crazy. That,
[00:11:11] Darin Colburn: [00:11:11] that I think the baby in the car thing I think is worth discussing a little more because in the image looks bad.
[00:11:19] There's no question about that. Like the. The snapshot that the paparazzi got for sitting with the newborn in her lap in a, in a car is, is not a good, is not a good image. And I do think that there is, you know, obviously we can't absolve her from any responsibility that you should not drive with a newborn in your lap.
[00:11:39] But she was also with the, with the image doesn't show is like all of the pop Roxy surrounding her vehicle. She is a concerned mother. Who's trying to get her child out of a situation, comfort a
[00:11:53] Billie Tarascio: [00:11:53] baby, like anybody who's had a crying, screaming newborn in the back of their seat of their car seat. I mean, [00:12:00] I've sat, I've gotten a baby out and held a baby through a carwash or yeah.
[00:12:05] You know, driving into a driveway like that, doesn't make someone unfit. So the image is bad, but. Come on that can't translate to losing custody.
[00:12:16] Darin Colburn: [00:12:16] Whoa. And then the same thing with the infamous photo of her with the umbrella attacking the paparazzo his car. It's the same thing as you don't, you don't see what came before that the documentary kind of illuminated that, which is, I mean, very good.
[00:12:31]And is raising awareness, I think in general about how we. How we interact with celebrities. But you know, all you see is her attacking the guy and, and attacking the vehicle. I mean, she was having one of the worst days of her life. She, her husband or Kevin Federline had basically withheld the children from her.
[00:12:51] And, you know, she. There's nothing more important to her than her kids. Right. And she's being followed in a harassing [00:13:00] manner by the paparazzi, her family who was in the vehicle with her, asked them to stop, ask them to leave. It was really, it was really rich hearing this guy talk about how they had no idea that she was uncomfortable and she never, she never asked.
[00:13:14] He said, I remember him saying. You know, she, she never asked us to stop and the interviewers, like what about when she said, please leave? It was like, well, that was just a one day thing, you know? But like she was in a vulnerable state and they just kept pushing and pushing and pushing. And I mean, if you've ever been in a vulnerable state personally it's very difficult in imagine going through that with the whole world watching, I mean, that would be incredible pressure.
[00:13:43] But Kevin, you know, so these images come out, these little snapshots cuts her head. She's attacking the car. Kevin leverages that into going to family court. Okay. And she's unstable. The kids need to be [00:14:00] protected and to some degree, like, yeah, like one thing I was thinking about is if a client walked in our doors, And they had a photo of some of these things, or, you know, it would be there there's a case to be made there.
[00:14:16] Billie Tarascio: [00:14:16] It's easy for us to say, this is absolutely evidence that mom is unfit and you know what, maybe she was, maybe there was some question as to her judgment as to her ability to care for her children. If somehow that's translated into, I can't make any decisions for myself ever.
[00:14:35] Darin Colburn: [00:14:35] Yeah. And that's the, is why is it that's one of the things I kept hearing from her fans is why is this conservatorship still in place?
[00:14:43] Right. So do you want to, do you want to talk about the timing of like, okay she's having some of these incidents and she files for divorce. He asked for sole custody.
[00:14:53] Billie Tarascio: [00:14:53] It's too easy to get into this trap. And I don't want to gloss over this because we're family law attorneys and our clients [00:15:00] experience desperation when they are going through family court, when they are facing, losing their children.
[00:15:05] When they're unable to have contact with their children. Britney had two very young boys. It was clear to me that she was and is emotionally. Raw and emotionally very connected to them. And it mattered very much to her that she was able to take care of her kids and they were taken away from her. And that makes many normal people without mental illness, experience despair and desperation and something that looks like insanity. Now we have heard that Britney has been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. That's never been actually confirmed. We also heard that in the divorce paperwork, he claimed she was a drug addict. What we heard in the documentary was that she went to rehab or a mental health facility for use of Vyvanse.
[00:15:48] Which is a ADHD drug or a stimulant drug. So there's really no evidence that she was actually a a drug addict besides that, that blip of maybe when she was using Vyvanse.
[00:16:00] [00:16:00] Darin Colburn: [00:16:00] Yeah, so I've thought a lot about this because again, so Kevin Federline gets the kids. Okay. Her father , Jamie Spears initiates a conservatorship action against Britney around the same period of time.
[00:16:15] And that was granted on a temporary basis. Right. So at that point it was completely temporary. Britney gets gets out of that hearing where it was granted goes or. She goes directly to, was she in a facility at that point? She went directly to like the Beverly Hills hotel, right. And met with this really high profile trial lawyer that specializes in conservatorships.
[00:16:41] And he, he my first reaction is like, why is this guy talking about. These things, it seems like that would be prohibited. It is prohibited.
[00:16:51] Billie Tarascio: [00:16:51] Lawyer is allowed to say, this is what my client or potential client told me. And that is what this man said on camera, which is why I think you said alleged [00:17:00] attorney because attorneys can't do
[00:17:01] Darin Colburn: [00:17:01] that.
[00:17:02] Yeah. Well, not only that, but I mean, what was interesting is he describes her coming into the hotel having a discussion with her. He's trying to have. He's trying to determine whether or not she's competent to accept representation. He makes a determination based on his interactions with her, that she is competent, right?
[00:17:22] They go into court. The next hearing together, he's going to represent her. This is her counsel of choice. And the judge, according to him, says, No, sir, you can't represent her. She's not competent to choose an attorney. And when he said his what he said, the judge said is, look, I've got these medical records here, by the way, I'm not going to let you look at them.
[00:17:43]But I've got them in these records, make it clear that she's not competent. So rather than letting her choose you as an attorney, which is not competent to do I'm the judge, I'm going to appoint an attorney. That to me was. Insane. It doesn't really make [00:18:00] any sense that didn't make any sense to me as an attorney.
[00:18:03]But in, in, I think if she had, well, I mean, I don't know anything about the representation, but it kind of felt like. If, if she had been represented this guy, maybe things would have gone differently. And that's the guy who said, Hey, you don't know what don't know. I don't know what was in that paperwork.
[00:18:17] Right. I just have to rely on the court.
[00:18:20]Billie Tarascio: [00:18:20] And what do we know? Like we know, we know ethically people, we represent people with diminished capacity all the time. All the time. People are still allowed to have representation. If they're minors, if they have diminished capacity, if they're experiencing mental illness.
[00:18:37] So for. Him to say for the judge to make that ruling, we don't understand why. And we also have to wonder, like, what medical records are we talking about here and who got the medical records? Right.
[00:18:50] Darin Colburn: [00:18:50] Well, I, I, another thought that I had watching this whole thing is in terms of the, we don't know, we don't know things.
[00:18:57] There's gotta be some [00:19:00] serious basis for why it was the conservatorship was why that proceeding was initiated.
[00:19:06] Billie Tarascio: [00:19:06] Isn't it possible that her father was opportunistically seeing this as an opportunity to take over. And she saw this as the only way to rehabilitate her current PR situation and see her kids and she consented.
[00:19:21] And that was that.
[00:19:23] Darin Colburn: [00:19:23] That's possible. Sure. It's possible. But one thing that stuck out to me was her mother there was a lot, there's a lot to be said about Jamie Spears and his lack of involvement early. I mean, it kind of felt like he just kind of swooped in and was operating opportunistic. But as far as her mother there, everything in the documentary was generally positive about how she's been supportive of her daughter's career and they have a loving relationship. And at one point, you know I guess she's now fighting to be involved in the, the conservatorship of Britney's person. And I guess that warrants a brief explanation. There's two parts of this conservatorship, basically [00:20:00] the the conservator has to make decisions about her person, meaning like her medical decisions her care. And then there's also a financial aspect, like who she can contract with managing our money, so on and so forth. But what I didn't hear is anything from her mother contesting that there needs to be a conservatorship in the first place.
[00:20:19] And if she really was, if there was like no, no support for it. I mean, there had, in my mind, there had to have been some. Event that we don't know about. That is legitimate for how this all started. But the question is why is it still in place, right? Yeah.
[00:20:38] I mean, the, the, you, you run down this rabbit hole and it gets absolutely crazy.
[00:20:43] Billie Tarascio: [00:20:43] I find myself watching all of Britney's videos on Instagram and we can even show some of them, they're weird, like what's going on in this woman's head. But, but the thing that really. Doesn't make sense to me is how she, the family court [00:21:00] case wrapped up and she was given equal parenting time, 50, 50 custody.
[00:21:06] And she has to the best of my knowledge, exercise that up until her father assaulted her child. And then when her father assaulted her child, I think it was Sean Preston. Kevin Federline went and got himself an order of protection. He also handed that information over to the police and the order of protection was upheld and Britney's custody was changed from 50 50 to either 70, 30 or 90 10.
[00:21:38] So Jamie Spears behavior towards her children has now cost her parenting time. And that's just really bothersome to me.
[00:21:48] Darin Colburn: [00:21:48] Yeah. I, I agree. And the, the other thing that is interesting because there wasn't there wasn't actually that much on that situation was like a comment or two in the documentary.
[00:21:57] So I did a little digging. I couldn't really [00:22:00] find where he had challenged the order of protection.
[00:22:02]Billie Tarascio: [00:22:02] He didn't .
[00:22:04] Darin Colburn: [00:22:04] Okay. He didn't. So, which is interesting. I think this warrants a discussion. What I did find is that he's not being prosecuted, right? Yeah. The prosecutor said, Hey, look, we did an investigation. We don't, we don't have sufficient evidence of criminal charges.
[00:22:19] Well, I think it's important to explain to people what the difference between an order of protection is in terms of what you have to prove and criminal proceedings. So the, the burden of proof to uphold in order of protection is extremely low, right? Whereas the burden of proof on a criminal proceeding is beyond a reasonable doubt, which is a very high burden of proof.
[00:22:40] And so. It's hard. I mean, it is entirely possible that you, that an order of protection is upheld, but criminal charges are not pending. I mean, are not made. So I don't know if anyone else was interested in that, but I just kind of wanted to explain that what is interesting to me is why didn't he challenge it?
[00:22:59] Because I [00:23:00] had, we have no idea what happens in these people's lives, right? And we deal we deal with cases where domestic violence is alleged. Sometimes. Sometimes we believe it happens. Sometimes we believe it didn't happen. Right. And we pursued that based on the evidence, but I was very curious why Jamie Spears didn't challenge you or protection because he certainly has the resources to do that. So, yeah.
[00:23:21] Billie Tarascio: [00:23:21] Well, let's take a step back and talk about what happened. Allegedly what's been reported what's been reported is that there was a fight or an argument between, I think Sean Preston and his grandfather now in the documentary, we hear that, you know, the dad's kind of a jerk and we see enough clips.
[00:23:38] Home clips to indicate that he's not an easy man. So is it odd that a teenager would fight with his grandfather when the grandfather's controlling and domineering? Probably not. So they get in a fight. Sean Preston is running away or leaving or walking away, close to the door. Locks it. And the allergy allegation is that Jamie breaks down the door and grabs [00:24:00] his neck.
[00:24:00] The now what Kevin Federline has reported in the family case is that Britney then did the right thing and removed her children from her father's presence. And and that she, you know, made a great choice that was then reported from Kevin Federline to the police. Now does that, and the question for the polices does that constitute child abuse.
[00:24:21] The question for the order of protection is a little different.
[00:24:28] Darin Colburn: [00:24:28] Well, I think I, honestly, I think it's the same question. I think it's just different burdens of proof. Right. You still have to prove criminal conduct in, in order to protect at least in Arizona. Right. But it's just, you don't have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt,
[00:24:42] right?
[00:24:43] Billie Tarascio: [00:24:43] It could be a lot of things like it could be, you know, breaking down a door in your own house ' isn't illegal a parent grabbing a kid by their neck. Isn't illegal. Right. A third party. Who's not a parent doesn't really have, have the right to discipline a child [00:25:00] and therefore has probably committed battery, but in a criminal proceeding, you know, proving that beyond a reasonable doubt.
[00:25:07] How do you do that without a, without a tape, without a video that shows dad, you know, grandpa, you know, grabbed his neck. How do you, how do you prove it? Right.
[00:25:15] Darin Colburn: [00:25:15] And it was all w what's also interesting. This next part is tricky for me because the other thing I discovered is that when it was announced that there wasn't going to be a prosecution Kevin Federline and his attorney and team came out and said, look, we're fine with that.
[00:25:29]Our focus is on protecting the children. The order of protection is in place. That's what it's designed to do. W which I agree with in there, like, frankly, we're happy. He doesn't have to deal with that. We're not trying to pursue. Prosecution, which what it could, it could have been one of the reasons why the prosecution, the prosecutors didn't find sufficient evidence.
[00:25:45] Obviously, if you have cooperating victims versus uncooperative victims, one is one case is a lot easier to prove. However, so we have to send men, Hey, we're just trying to do what's best to protect the children. But as you said, Britney [00:26:00] Acted correctly by nobody's disputing that. So what, what harm are you trying to solve by reducing her parenting time?
[00:26:09] It sounds like we just need to remove the father from situation in order to protect the children, which is what happened. So on one hand, okay. Mr. Federline, and you want to protect the kids, but you're also removing, you know, restricting their mother. You're wanting to restrict the mother's time when there's no evidence that she did anything wrong here.
[00:26:29] Billie Tarascio: [00:26:29] It makes me so upset, but it's essentially like it's essentially Britney can not get away from her father. She cannot - she's essentially been deemed a minor, unable to make decisions for herself. She does not have the option of creating separation there, but that man has per the family court abused her children. And therefore that limits her parenting time. Now, if that happens in a spousal situation, if Jamie and Britney were married, Britney could be charged with failure to protect for staying with an abusive man who abused her children. Right. It's pretty frustrating.
[00:27:00] [00:27:00] Darin Colburn: [00:27:00] It's very frustrating. I mean, we think you would need to be able to tie the, the misconduct to the restriction, right? Like for example if You know, w with people that have a drinking problem, right? Oftentimes the court will Institute alcohol and drug testing orders. Right? The idea there is to determine, to prevent the harm of the alcohol and substance abuse.
[00:27:25] Right. And to monitor that, but the idea is, Hey if the risk is that so-and-so is going to drive with the children in the car and they're going to be drunk. Okay. Do we have an emission interlock device? So we testing where I really, what are we doing to mitigate that risk? But outside of that risk, what is, what is the risk?
[00:27:42] I mean, courts in Arizona seem to me to take a bit, a more nuanced approach. To these issues. Again, and, and the thing about you can always fall back on this unknown of like, we don't know what Britney's mental conditions are, but what we do know right is that she's very high functioning. And one of [00:28:00] the things that stuck out to me was like, I think, I think one of the attorneys referenced her in court documents as a high functioning conservatee, which in, in the you know, my favorite attorney, the.
[00:28:12] The fancy trial lawyer that I've mentioned earlier said, what does that mean functioning? Conservatee
[00:28:21] Billie Tarascio: [00:28:21] the other thing I just read was that Jamie Spears wanted Britney to be able to testify in court and her lawyers were opposed. Her lawyers were posed and said that. Lawyers for a comatose patient are able to move forward on behalf of their client and they should be able to move forward on behalf of their client here too.
[00:28:48] Darin Colburn: [00:28:48] Yeah. You you're saying Britney's lawyers didn't want him to testify. Okay. So think about what kind of situation would as an attorney, let's assume they're operating in good faith, right? [00:29:00] Because it's not, we can't turn this whole thing. Not everyone can be involved in a conspiracy, but
[00:29:05] Billie Tarascio: [00:29:05] like they're all getting they're all getting paid so much money with this conservatorship in place. So part of me does feel like how can we say that they're operating in good faith when they have a conflict of interest personally, they're making bank off of this conservatorship. So why do they want it to end?
[00:29:22] Darin Colburn: [00:29:22] That's a fair argument. Right. But if they were operating in good faith, what kind of, but that's the thing you're right. I mean, in another interesting point, just on that before, before I forget is she's paying like in a normal conservatorship. It's like family and friends. Who are paying for paying for everyone's services because they're, they're really trying to enter, you know, intervene in a person's life who needs help.
[00:29:47] Britney is footing the bill for everyone. She's footing the bill for her attorneys for Jamie Lynn's attorneys for, you know, X, Y you name it she's footing the bill for it. Everyone. And there is a, there is a potential [00:30:00] conflict there. And that's, that's what people have really been focused on.
[00:30:04] Billie Tarascio: [00:30:04] Okay, well, the question is why. If we don't assume that they're just behaving this way for money, what other possible reasons could exist for them not wanting her on the stand? Yeah, maybe she said she didn't want to be on the stand.
[00:30:18] Maybe the relationship between her and her family is really complicated and she doesn't want to challenge her father.
[00:30:26] Darin Colburn: [00:30:26] I, or, you know, maybe it will become, maybe I think that whatever she wants to say is going to be very damaging. To her which, you know, you you have a right to get on the stand and being an idiot.
[00:30:38]But if you, if you have appointed counsel meaning this isn't like a voluntary attorney client relationship, but appointed the, the parameters might be a little different there. If there's concerns about capacity, right? Like you wouldn't want as a criminal defendant, you would have absolute right to invoke your fifth amendment privilege.
[00:30:58]But you know, if, if [00:31:00] you weren't competent to make the decision to invoke that. You know, th that would be interesting. I just, I feel like there's, I mean, it's just bizarre because Britney is very, like I said, she's very high functioning and conservatorships are generally for like old people who are susceptible to abuse and not are clearly incompetent to make decisions for themselves.
[00:31:22] One thing I noticed, is the focus on it seemed to me because they had this attorney that apparently worked with Jamie For a couple months and she couldn't talk specifics because of that. Right. She said, what'd you supposed to say? But you said I can talk hypothetically. And then everything that came after that, which is why I'm paying attention to it, had to do with concerns about people taking advantage of Britney financially.
[00:31:46]And so I imagine there's there had been. I mean, might be implication to me, was there had been some of that going on in the past. And then specifically if there's this boyfriend that was [00:32:00] apparently, managing her finances and drugging her and I mean, that can be true or not, but still why is she still on the conservatorship?
[00:32:07] I mean, this is somebody who has a Vegas residency. I mean, she's still a superstar, right?
[00:32:15] Trillion dollars a year.
[00:32:16] Billie Tarascio: [00:32:16] Yeah. I mean, she is. Lots of adults walk around with diminished capacity and don't have conservatorships maybe Britney is, I don't know. I don't know it. I don't want to be cruel, but maybe she is very easily influenced.
[00:32:31] Maybe she is immature and, you know, mentally and psychologically a little, you know, young for her age. So what. Does that mean she can't make her own decisions. And are there other ways that she could be protected? Let's say she is worried. Oh, behave. Like, cause she can send it to the conservatorship.
[00:32:50] So aren't there other ways that protections could be in place for her to not be manipulated and abused without taking away all of her rights. Couldn't you put a [00:33:00] management team in place? Couldn't you put some of the money in trust? Like aren't there other ways to handle this?
[00:33:08] Darin Colburn: [00:33:08] I think so at the end of it, you know, she was able to get, she's not she was not able to get Jamie removed as the financial conservator, but she wasn't able to get an a bank of basically like a team that she selected to be co- conservator with her. What is odd to me is why is Jamie? I mean, well, the obvious question, I think you already mentioned the reason, the obvious reason why Jamie doesn't want to let go of this is because he's getting paid.
[00:33:38] Billie Tarascio: [00:33:38] He's getting 1.5%, right? What's 1.5% a year. What is that? I don't know.
[00:33:42]Darin Colburn: [00:33:42] Of 60 million I'll do the math in real time. Right here.
[00:33:49] You said 1.5%.
[00:33:50] Billie Tarascio: [00:33:50] Yeah. That's what, that's what the documentary said.
[00:33:53]You know, who I do, like in this whole thing is the boyfriend. Yeah. The boyfriend seems like a really nice guy. [00:34:00] And Britney seems like she's really happy with him.
[00:34:03] Darin Colburn: [00:34:03] Yeah. It's it's $900,000 a year,
[00:34:06] Billie Tarascio: [00:34:06] $900,000 a year to, to, to control your daughter.
[00:34:11] Darin Colburn: [00:34:11] Yeah. And another interesting thing though, is like, what I read is that at the time of the conservatorship has, was put in place Britney's net worth was like down to like 2 million, two or 3 million, and now it's a significantly higher.
[00:34:26] So that is where that is where basically Jamie comes off saying, look, I I've been nothing but good. This has been nothing but good for my daughter. I've grown her estate, you know . But what was shocking in that same vein is like in actual court documents, there was one of the attorneys trying to tell the judge that we need to look at this more like a hybrid conservator ship slash business model, which is insane. I mean,
[00:34:56] Billie Tarascio: [00:34:56] really disgusting.
[00:34:58] Darin Colburn: [00:34:58] Like what, what [00:35:00] is best for Britney? Is it to be the richest woman on planet earth? She would probably rather have her kids than any, any amount of wealth.
[00:35:07] Billie Tarascio: [00:35:07] I would imagine freedom, like how much is that worth to her? You know, maybe she needs great managers.
[00:35:13] Maybe she needs great influencers, but can't you do that without a conservatorship? Probably.
[00:35:20] Go ahead.
[00:35:20] Darin Colburn: [00:35:20] Sorry. And the other thing too is interesting is like once, once you get power over her, I mean, and you see this and again, I'm not, I'm not alleging this is what occurred, but you could see where there's a risk of it.
[00:35:33]You know, if you want to be a, if you want to control some in a lot of abusive and controlling relationships, there's a, there's a sense of isolation, right? And yes, Britney is a public figure. But it kind of became clear to me through the documentary that they have. They have cut out of her life and routine people that were involved in it for years.
[00:35:55] Like the one lady that traveled with Britney everywhere, like [00:36:00] the, basically from her hometown and was her, you know, assistant she seemed genuinely to care, very deeply about Britney and she described, look, I, you know, I was, I was basically managing her day-to-day affairs. I was intimately involved in her life. And she got relegated to, first of all, the Britney company didn't hire her. Right. Instead she got hired by a third party, you know, a third party company. And she basically gives backstage tours. So like, they can control not only what happens in Britney's life, but who she's around, which, makes it more risky that they could be taking advantage of her because they're isolating her.
[00:36:39] Billie Tarascio: [00:36:39] It's just terrible. I mean, it's just, it's authorized abuse, isolation. It's. I give my teenagers more freedom than Britney Spears has. Like she doesn't get to make any choices and her social media, we need to talk about because the whole world is watching her social media and trying to pick out clues of what she say, because she has been [00:37:00] silent on all this.
[00:37:01] And that's weird, you know, Justin Bieber talked about what he was going through. Lots of celebrities have come forward and they, they express themselves. They feel the need to share. These are public figures, who have relationship with the public and, and over and over and over again, we see those people communicate about themselves. And Britney doesn't do that at all. Instead, she does weird dances.
[00:37:20] Darin Colburn: [00:37:20] Yeah, she does all kinds of weird things. Like she was talking about why she likes the movie frozen and how one of the sisters was locked away in a tower because she just couldn't deal. It is bizarre, you know, it kind of reminded me of QAnon, in a way.
[00:37:33]Or of like where people think there's like these secret messages encoded in the things that she's doing. In fact it's worth stating there's, there's entire, there's entire like cottage industry almost just about her Instagram. There's a, there's a podcast that is dedicated to her Instagram post.
[00:37:50] Right. And kind of dissecting and over analyzing her, her Instagram.
[00:37:55] Billie Tarascio: [00:37:55] It's easy to do. Like, let's take a look at some of these. [00:38:00] Decided to do another Q and a, because I heard you all and loved them so much. Also I realized that I could have at least put on a little mascara or lip gloss. Sorry. It's definitely a different look, PS, I'm skeptical of the ice cream diet.
[00:38:13] Britney Spears: [00:38:13] So we have this, we've heard a lot of you guys have been writing and, and you want to know what my main goals are for 2021. Number one is to meditate. more. Number two is to take a cooking class. Number three is to do a Pilates class and actually follow through with the class. And number four is I've got to try this ice cream diet.
[00:38:31] Okay. So I heard that a lot, you guys have been writing in and you want to,
[00:38:34] Billie Tarascio: [00:38:34] what you think of that?
[00:38:35]Darin Colburn: [00:38:35] It's just really sad to me because everything that she just discussed has to do with image. And this is somebody that has been objectified. Since she was a little girl, so it's like, I feel like she's not getting away from that at all.
[00:38:52] I mean and that's just really sad. That's like my initial gut reaction to it, but it's weird.
[00:38:58] Billie Tarascio: [00:38:58] It's weird. It's weird. [00:39:00] Look at this and wonder, like, why are you posting what you're posting? Like, what are you trained to say? Like, why are all of your, you have sad eyes in all of these pictures, like a trapped human that we all just want to go in and rescue.
[00:39:14] Darin Colburn: [00:39:14] And she's talking really fast. Almost like somebody who like hasn't had a good meal in a while. When they get sit down you know, scarf it up, like, like as soon as she's just talking really, really fast, cause like want to get it, you know, it's like, to me, it kind of feels like maybe she's trying to get it all out before it gets shut down.
[00:39:31] Right. But I don't know. It's hard to, it's just bizarre.
[00:39:33]Billie Tarascio: [00:39:33] . I think the free Britney movement is going to get traction.
[00:39:37] Darin Colburn: [00:39:37] No, I mean, so I actually. Again, I don't know, this is the beginnings of a thought, but the more I thought about the free Britney movement, the more I, her current situation and the paparazzi back in the nineties and the obsession, it's literally just fan obsession with her. Right. [00:40:00] And I kind of honestly see the free Britney movement as an extension of that, just channeled in a more positive way, but it kind of makes me uncomfortable a little bit too, to be honest, because even, even in there On the one hand, if she needs to be free, then yeah.
[00:40:13] I'm all for it. But what if she really has serious mental health issues? And now she's dealing with all these people who don't know her, you know, that are trying to free. I mean, it just seems like an extension of the same obsession with celebrity personalities. You know what I mean?
[00:40:30] Billie Tarascio: [00:40:30] It's a, it's a good point.
[00:40:31] Darin Colburn: [00:40:31] Yeah. I know
[00:40:34] Billie Tarascio: [00:40:34] the question is what if she is severely, mentally ill? What if she is. Yeah. What
[00:40:40] Darin Colburn: [00:40:40] well imagine what about what I'm saying is I don't think that the, the attention would be helpful to her.
[00:40:50] Billie Tarascio: [00:40:50] So the, I guess there's two different questions here for me. It's let's say she is severely, mentally ill.
[00:40:55]I still don't think she deserves a conservatorship. I still think that the [00:41:00] conservatorship is isn't is being improperly used and she's being exploited because people who are mentally ill still have rights, unless they're criminals, they still have rights and she should be able to make her own decisions.
[00:41:15] Darin Colburn: [00:41:15] Yeah. I'm with the attorney that says, Hey, we don't know, we don't know type thing. I am concerned enough to kind of have my ears perk and be aware, but without knowing exactly what's going on, what has occurred in the past and what what is going on in her world, it's just, it's hard to say I do.
[00:41:35] I do agree that she should have rights and, and make. Be able to make decisions, but is she capable of ma I mean, conservatorships are there for a reason and for some people they make sense.
[00:41:46] Billie Tarascio: [00:41:46] That's an interesting point, too. So I, there is a new documentary that I have not watched on Netflix on conservatorship. And the point of this documentary is that they are wildly [00:42:00] abused, wildly unregulated, and that people are, you know, professional conservators, regularly exploited the elderly. Like I think we all need to maybe take a look at this. At conservatorships, you know, what, when are they appropriate? Like we should be, we should be very careful before we go take away someone's rights.
[00:42:22] Darin Colburn: [00:42:22] Yeah. And it's the same thing with like putting somebody in an involuntary mental hold, right? Like sometimes, sometimes it's necessary, but it should, it shouldn't be an easy thing to do.
[00:42:33] Billie Tarascio: [00:42:33] It shouldn't be easy and it should be temporary. Many people. I say many because many of the clients that I've talked to have experienced a stay in a behavioral health Institute and maybe even had a family member in voluntarily take them in.
[00:42:48]Britney started out with a 51 50 hold, which is a temporary hold due to concerns of mental fitness. Now that's an emergency and it's finite in time and I have a whole lot more [00:43:00] support for that. Then there's long-term concept of losing your rights or being locked up.
[00:43:05] Darin Colburn: [00:43:05] Yeah. It seems to me, I don't know enough about it, but it seems to me like the, the burden shifts, when you consent to a conservatorship. Which the idea of consenting their conservatorship now that I'm thinking about it is kind of a.
[00:43:21] Billie Tarascio: [00:43:21] An oxymoron?
[00:43:22] Darin Colburn: [00:43:22] Yeah. Yeah. I mean like, okay, you're saying that she can't consent to hire her own attorney, but she can consent to to the conservatorship. So like, if there's no impact of that decision, meaning like the, the process for terminating the conservatorship is the same as it otherwise would be without consent, then, then I'd have less of a problem with it.
[00:43:45] But the problem is. Based on what I understand from the documentary is that the fact that she consented basically makes it extremely difficult for her to get it terminated in the future, because she has the burden of [00:44:00] proving that the conservator ship is no longer necessary. And if she is being taken advantage of how is she able to do that when she can't even hire her own attorney?
[00:44:10] Billie Tarascio: [00:44:10] Right. This is a big deal. So she has the ability at this point to petition the court, to ask the court to end the conservatorship. And that has not happened now. Why. Why hasn't that happened? Why do we have her brother in the documentary saying of course she's never wanted the conservatorship, but she has never actually asked the court to end it.
[00:44:30] Why? Is it because she doesn't have the ability to hire her own lawyer? Is it because she doesn't know what to do? Is it because there's too much backlash? Like why?
[00:44:41] Darin Colburn: [00:44:41] Yeah. And you know, if she is at the reason why it was put in place in the first place is because she's susceptible. And again, this is all speculative, but if she's impressionable and, and add significant risks of being taken advantage of, well, maybe the conservatorship or the continuation thereof is just an extension of that because [00:45:00] she clearly loves being on stage. That is. That is evident. She, even now like she's she has started saying I will not work unless my dad is, which is crazy because that, that shows a certain level of competence. Right?
[00:45:14]Billie Tarascio: [00:45:14] It's a decision. It's a decision that has a real impact to her. And it's like the only decision she gets to make, the only option she has, the only leverage she has is to say, I'm not going to make any more money.
[00:45:26] I'm not going to work unless my dad is no longer in charge of me.
[00:45:31] Darin Colburn: [00:45:31] Yeah, that's crazy.
[00:45:33] Billie Tarascio: [00:45:33] It's crazy. We're going to keep following this. We're going to see what happens. I really hope that Britney gets free or starts speaking out or starts using her social media platforms. Not sound so cryptic.
[00:45:46] Just tell us what you want. Britney, speak up, speak out. You can do this. If you need to watch our our episode on Kellyanne Conway and Claudia Conway, she spoke out. You can [00:46:00] too.
[00:46:00] Darin Colburn: [00:46:00] Hmm. Yeah. And it's, it is interesting. And I, I hope I hope the situation gets a lot more scrutiny. I was also curious if it's been the same judge on the case the entire time and how that would have an impact on it.
[00:46:13]
[00:46:13] Billie Tarascio: [00:46:13] It seems that her files are sealed and things are getting leaked. And we have to actually doubt the information that we're reading, because it is unclear if they're true, right. Where this information is coming from, people are being interviewed. People are giving information, but we don't really have like the best sources.
[00:46:34] And that's something that we should keep in mind.
[00:46:36] Darin Colburn: [00:46:36] Yeah. And I, but to your point, as I'm kind of rethinking things through discussion. It seems like the system in itself requires good faith actors, but in the, if you had bad faith actors, it would be really easy. Like being the ecosystem that is created by a conservatorship would be really easy to take advantage of for, especially somebody like for somebody like Britney who can [00:47:00] flip the bill for everyone.
[00:47:01] Billie Tarascio: [00:47:01] Right. Absolutely. We shouldn't scrutinize. We should keep paying attention. And hopefully one day she lets us know where she is.
[00:47:09] Darin Colburn: [00:47:09] Well, according to her former assistant, you know, she thinks Britney will speak up one day and she looks forward to that.
[00:47:14] Billie Tarascio: [00:47:14] - . We all do. Thank you, Darin. We'll talk soon.
[00:47:18] Bye.