In this fascinating episode of the Modern Divorce Podcast, host Billie Tarascio talks with Dana Lam, founder of the Surprise Date Challenge on how to save a marriage from divorce with some simple steps that anyone can do. The conversation also covers when you'll know if it's "over," and Dana's own rocky path to understanding these steps after suffering a divorce to her children's father.
Keeping a marriage and a relationship together is said to take "work," but in this episode, Dana explains how her Surprise Date Challenge came to be. She's also written a book on the subject by the same name.
In this fascinating episode of the Modern Divorce Podcast, host Billie Tarascio talks with Dana Lam, founder of the Surprise Date Challenge on how to save a marriage from divorce with some simple steps that anyone can do. The conversation also covers when you'll know if it's "over," and Dana's own rocky path to understanding these steps after suffering a divorce to her children's father.
Keeping a marriage and a relationship together is said to take "work," but in this episode, Dana explains how her Surprise Date Challenge came to be. She's also written a book on the subject by the same name.
Billie Tarascio (00:01):
Hello, and welcome to the modern divorce podcast. I'm your host, Billie Tarascio. I'm the owner of modern law, a family law firm in the Phoenix area. I've been a divorce attorney for more than 15 years. I've got four kiddos and I'm divorced myself. And on this podcast, we're going to cover everything related to divorce. Be it legal issues, financial issues, children issues, blended family issues, counseling mediation, and more. I hope you enjoyed the podcast.
Billie Tarascio (00:29):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the modern divorce podcast. I am Billie Tarascio and I am here with Dana lamb. I am so excited that you are here today to talk about your new company. Everything that you're doing, you've really blown up here in the Phoenix area, and then talking about your divorce and how you've blended a family after that. So would you mind introducing yourself?
Dana Lam (00:54):
Yes. My name is Dana Lam and I am the co-creator of Surprise Date Challenge where basically kind of a concierge service that helps couples to keep the romance and passion alive by planning one surprise date a month for each other. And this is something that I'm very passionate about. Our goal is to save 1 million relationships from breaking up and breaking apart and being married for 13 years. And,uthat relationship ending really revolved around us, not having date nights and not connecting as a couple.
Dana Lam (01:31):
We, you know, focus more on our careers and family and forgot about our relationship. And I really believe that led to the demise and without knowledge and experience, I would love to help prevent other couples from going through what we did.
Billie Tarascio (01:46):
I think that what you said just there is so important because you know, raising families and being young and working on your careers, there's no time, like the relationship is the last priority. It's like, it should, should just be set it and forget it. And you're right. It doesn't work that way. As I see every single day as a divorce attorney and now your company that you own is with your new partner, right?
Dana Lam (02:13):
It is, it is. It's really interesting. I'm the one who pushed it to be a business, but we have been together for it'll be six years in April.
Dana Lam (02:23):
And he was introduced to me by friends and I'm so happy. They introduced me in one month into, into our relationship. He says, I have this idea that we should plan one surprise date a week. And he called it fun Friday ritual and me being, you know, new, new, more newly divorced, and having two boys who were they were nine and 13 at the time. I was like, Oh my gosh, I have him every other week. Let's do, let's do it once, once a month. So once a month I would plan a surprise date for him. And once a month he would plan one for me. And he said, I'll show you how it's done. And planned a cooking class at Sur Le Table and Italian cooking class. I had no idea what we were doing. He told me to wear flats or comfortable shoes, but you know that I would be standing, but to look date night cute. That was all I knew. And that's what really started it back in 2015. And I loved it so much. I was listening to Elizabeth. Gilbert's big magic on audible. A lot of people may know her from eat, pray love, or her book. Big magic is amazing. And she says the universal give you an idea. And if you don't run with it, someone else will. And then you'll say they stole your idea and we've all got that happen. Right? So I, my mom actually said that about Benjamin button before Benjamin button came out. I used to talk about that when I was a kid that we should start out Oles and get younger. I could have written that book. Umut anyway, you know, so that I went to Martin, he was like, well, we can't make money at that. And I said, well, can we help couples?
Dana Lam (03:58):
And so we got 10 couples together and we said, would you be our Guinea pigs? And try this out. And we called that the surprise day challenge for three months, we had them sign a little contract and commit to planning one surprise data month for each other for three months. And we just wanted them. We just wanted to know, did it help their relationship? Did it do nothing? Did they think it was lame? Was it too much work or obligation? And what we found really surprised us they, you know, the couples that thank you for lighting a fire under this man that I love, you know, my husband never plans dates, and he planned three amazing dates. The couples said that they wanted to continue this practice. And so some of them have been for now nearly four years, practicing surprise dates with each other. So we knew, we knew we had something that it does make a difference, and we do get so busy that people sometimes just get the scrap. Your, your most important relationship gets the scraps and then your foundation crumbles. And, and we don't do it intentionally. I don't believe most people don't, they don't plan to get married and then get divorced and have two separate families and two separate households and mess your kids up. Right? I mean, that's not that that's not the goal, but it just, it happens. And I want to educate people about how this one simple thing of scheduling a date, at least once a month, if not twice a month for each of you, then it really can connect and bond you.
Billie Tarascio (05:24):
I love this. I think it's critical. And I think it's brilliant. And so, and the nice thing about your company is you, you do the surprise planning for us busy people, right?
Dana Lam (05:35):
Yes, we, we do. We do make it easy. We have our date of the month club where every month we'll email you to date ideas when you can do out on the town. And when you can do at home, we give you the invitations to invite them. So it tells your date what to wear and what time to be ready. So we take, we make it so easy for you. The conversation starters, people forget to talk. I had somebody say, yeah, she went to dinner with her husband. They've been married 35 years. And she said, aren't you going to talk to me? And he said, well, what do you want to talk about? And, you know, we just run. We do run out of things to talk about. So we give you conversation starter cards. You can take to dinner with you after you go on your cool date, whatever it is, and ask each other these questions and really get to know your partner, even if you've been married for 35 years. So we make it easy.
Billie Tarascio (06:25):
I love it. So how much does the date of the month club cost?
Dana Lam (06:29):
The date of the month club is $20 a month.
Billie Tarascio (06:33):
Wow.
Dana Lam (06:33):
Or 180 for a year.
Billie Tarascio (06:35):
Okay. It sounds like a steal.
Dana Lam (06:37):
It is definitely cheaper than a divorce, right?
Billie Tarascio (06:42):
Cheaper than a divorce. I love. Y eah, you're absolutely right. And you're investing in yourself and your relationship now, you also have books, right?
Billie Tarascio (06:51):
Do we, do we have two books?
New Speaker (06:53):
Our original surprise date challenge came out in 2019. And it's really about why are surprise dates important? Arthur, Aaron, who's a professor at Stony Brook says that we need to in relationship it's so important to do novel things together and have new experiences because that's what bonds in and connects us. And so that, that's kind of the premise of that book. And then we came out in 2020 with the home edition, which has a year's worth of dates that you can do at home. And it includes a bonus page with a Spotify playlist. So music for your date, everything you need to order, pull off your date. There are printables and downloads. Many of them are, are free or very reasonable as well.
Billie Tarascio (07:38):
I love this. It's a great idea.
Dana Lam (07:40):
Thanks.
Billie Tarascio (07:42):
And then you've got a third book coming out, Right?
Dana Lam (07:44):
We do. It is the surprise date challenge, bedroom edition. So it has a year's worth of dates that start or end in the bedroom.
Billie Tarascio (07:53):
Oh, my sounds spicy.
Dana Lam (07:55):
Yes. I think it's our best book yet. And we have several more books coming down the road. We're going to do a girlfriend edition. So dates you can do with your girlfriend and double date addition that you can do maybe with other couples or if there's, you know, if you have a tribe of friends, you know, to get together together with. So it really is. We see ourselves as the chicken soup for the soul for relationships.
Billie Tarascio (08:19):
Yes. Congratulations to you. I am. So it's been thrilling to watch your success. But I do have some questions about how you have, how, how you've entered this new relationship with somebody who's your, your life partner, your business partner, your romantic partner, and how you have integrated your two boys, Post-divorce.
Dana Lam (08:44):
Yes. I would be happy to share that. It's really interesting. Cause Marty is hadn't has never been married and doesn't have any kids of his own and, and never saw himself as having kids. And I get it. I mean, kids are a lot of work and a lot and a lot of money. So, you know, I didn't really fault him for that. We did have some challenges in the beginning of our relationship because he really, he fell in love with me. And then I fell in love with him. And then he was like, I don't think I can do the kids things. So we were on and off again for the first couple, couple of years. And he has really stepped in. We've been living together now in may, it'll be four years. So he really has stepped in and I did have to finally just say to him, Hey, you're either all in or all out. I can't just be friends with you in the middle. And it wasn't about an ultimatum. It was just what I, I either had to have him all in and know that he really was committed or be all out so that I could move on and find the person I was gonna spend the rest of my life with. And he first said, no, he couldn't do it. And then it, it took him about two days and he said, okay, what size ring to you? Where, and, and we, we actually we are domestic legally domestic partners. And we had a commitment ceremony several years ago in the beach in Turks and Caicos on our anniversary. And I don't personally need to get married again. I, he is, he is my life partner and my forever boyfriend and things are really great. It could have gone either way, but having, you know, having kids you know, especially teenage boys when you're not used to, that was a challenge and him, and he's become such a great mentor to my boys. They really look up to him and it's, but it wasn't easy for any of us. Okay.
Billie Tarascio (10:34):
Okay. So this is so important and I really appreciate how honest you're being, because you look online, you look at the influencers, you look at, you know, the happily co-parenting blended families and people. Aren't always honest about how complicated it can be. And so tell me, like, how did you decide when it was the right time to introduce him to your boys?
Dana Lam (10:58):
Well, definitely. I mean, that, wasn't something that I did right away. I mean, I did go on several you know, dates and actually between my divorce and meeting Marty, I met somebody else and he had moved in and moved from Newport beach to Phoenix. And unfortunately six weeks after he moved here, he got sick and had leukemia. And so I basically was his caretaker for eight months, which was really, I mean, I know it was really challenging for my kids. They really, you know, like George a lot. And George in fact taught my nine-year-old son, how to ride a bike. And after he passed away, he went out and rode his bike. He, he always had a hard time starting by himself and he goes, I can do it. And he came back and said, mom, I did it for George that yeah. Had it had an impact. I mean, a huge impact on, you know, on my kids, which I mean, but when all of that happened, he had already been introduced. It's not like I could, I could change that. And I remember when I was trying to hide my sadness and it was crying in the shower and my son Harrison, who was nine, was knocking on the door or no, after I turned the shower off, he said, mom, are you okay? Like, I couldn't hide it. Like they knew what was going on. And kind of another cute story about well about them is after George passed away here, Ethan moved into George's spot at the dinner table. He was 12 or 13, which I thought was really interesting. I never said anything. And maybe I should have asked him, but I mean, I could think it was just understood.
Dana Lam (12:39):
Like he was filling that spot and Harrison who was nine actually took one of my rings and got to antimony and proposed to me, to Mary to marry me. So we did, I wish I would have pictures of it and see it, it was so awkward and weird, but it was just so sweet at the same time. And so we actually got stuffed animals and flowers and we had a little wedding ceremony after George passed away in my bedroom. So, you know, we had all that going on and I really wanted to find, you know, that person. And I asked some friends who had some, a great relationship, Joel and Diane, and I said, you guys have such a great relationship. Don't, you know, do you, don't you, you know, we need guys that would be a great fit for me. And they said, you know, actually there is somebody that we think would be a great fit for you.
Dana Lam (13:24):
And that was Marty. And they, they were the ones who, who introduced us. And so of course I didn't, especially after going through all of that with, with George passing away, I wasn't in a hurry to, you know, introduce, introduce him to the boys. So I don't remember now it's been a while, so I don't remember exactly how long, but it was really once I was really sure that he was somebody that I wanted to have in my, in my life. And actually I knew the day I met him. I knew the day. I've never been that sure. About anyone. I knew he was the guy for me. I didn't tell him that. I told some friends that I probably told him maybe six months in. And you know, we probably were dating maybe two months before I introduced him to, we did something with the kids. We, we went to a concert at a park.
Billie Tarascio (14:16):
Sure. Yeah. So your kids really had gone through a lot at that point. They had gone through the divorce of their parents and then the loss of a stepfather that they loved. And it sounds like you guys have really settled on a really healthy step-parent like mentor, like relationship between Marty and the boys.
Dana Lam (14:38):
Yes, yes. For sure.
Dana Lam (14:41):
I think they really, they think they really look up to him. He's very different from their father, which I think is great because it gives them some comparison contrast, not that one is better than the other. And what I try to tell them is, you know, take the parts that you, that you like, and you can use that and carry that forward into your life and the type of, you know, husband, father, if you choose that, if you choose the, either of those routes that you want to be in, how you want to show up in the world,
Speaker 3 (15:11):
I think that is so important. The more role models we can have, the better, the more people, the more ways we can see how people do things the better. Because if, if kids grow up and they think I have to be like, my dad, my dad is the way that you have to be a man. They will never be that because of course they aren't their dad. And so having more than one person as a role model and as somebody to influence them is a great, great thing. Now, did your, ex-husband have a problem with you bringing other men into their lives?
Dana Lam (15:45):
No, he, he did an an and we had a very challenging divorce because you know, he wasn't really, he didn't want the divorce. It was me. And I don't know. Have you ever heard of divorce Monday? No, so, well, it is interesting. So we were married for 13 years and I had approached him and said, you know, we don't date anymore. And he said to me, well, we can date when the kids are grown up. And I'm thinking that's like 10 more years. Like when they move out of the house, I can't stay on you that long. And I tried to get him to go to a weekend to remember, and he really wasn't interested in doing that. And I knew if we didn't do it that it would probably be over. And I even said, this is going to be a lot less expensive than a divorce.
Dana Lam (16:28):
And that was like in, you know, in the fall. And so I sucked it up through the holidays and told him I wanted to divorce. I think it was actually Sunday, but that was like the first weekend. And in, in January, and I read, I've read several articles that there's something called divorce Monday where people do that. They suck it up through the holidays to get through for the family's sake. And then they either file for divorce or seek an attorney out in that first week, that first weekend in January. So anyway, he wasn't really happy with me. So we had a, a little bit of a Rocky divorce. He was not happy. He was a little bit mean to me. And I was, I was so Pollyannish. I thought we could go on cruises together and you know, each of our own rooms and, you know, spend Thanksgiving together and be friends. And that just was not, was not going to happen because he was angry. Yes.
Billie Tarascio (17:26):
You know, there is usually the person who is, who is leaving and January is divorce month. It's the, it's the the time when we see more diverse filings than any other time of the year. And usually the person who files for divorce is ready and they're more ready and they are, they've already been contemplating their future and they've already grieved the loss of their relationship. And so they're thinking about, you know, how do we, how do we move from being lovers and partners to co-parents and friends? And it often takes the, the other parents a lot longer to catch up,
Billie Tarascio (17:59):
Right? Did He ever catch up, are you guys on good terms?
Dana Lam (18:04):
Yes, we are. You know, it's really interesting. I would say, I would say so. I mean, I would love for it to be better than it is of course, but I don't know that it ever will be with us. He has remarried. And I was just going to say, he really surprised me because it was still very raw for him when George passed away and the first card sympathy card, I gotten the men and I've saved it and shown his children because sometimes they don't want what's that for me is they don't want to be in the same room with us together. Oh, that breaks my heart. And my, I have a cousin who feels the same way and I've talked to her about it. And she said, it just feels awkward and weird because I know my parents don't like each other and that's not. I mean, I still like my husband. I loved him at one time. I created two children with him. So that's really not it at all. My son, when we got divorced, I know he said he was real. He goes, mom. I was really surprised because you and dad never fought, but he goes, but now that he, once he saw us in the two different houses and he saw how we lived, he goes, you guys are just so different from each other. He understood, he understood them. But even now, like I'm getting ready to talk to my ex tonight to let them know that I've moved my son to a new school, which he hasn't been aware of, but he lives with me full time. And, and so my, my son does not want to be there. He doesn't want me to say anything. He's just worried. Sometimes we don't know how he's gonna react. Like sometimes things that I think will upset him don't and then things that don't upset him do. And so it's kind of this loose cannon. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells and, and so that makes it a little bit more challenging. So I don't think it'll ever be exactly what I would like hope it to be, but you never know, I'm not going to give up hope right. Or, or keep trying to create the relationship with him that I want, especially for the boys sake.
Billie Tarascio (20:01):
Okay. So the boys were nine and 13. When you divorced, how old are they now?
Dana Lam (20:06):
Yeah, they were eight. Well, they were eight and 12 and they're they're 21 and 17.
Billie Tarascio (20:12):
Wow. Okay. So, and you mentioned, so you must be talking about your 17 year old, he lives with you full-time now.
Dana Lam (20:18):
Yes, he has for the past couple of years.
Billie Tarascio (20:21):
And how did you guys know that that was, that it was time to make that change?
Dana Lam (20:26):
Well his dad just said it was too challenging for him to live, live with him. And it's challenging for me too, because he does have, he was diagnosed with Asperger's when he was right before he was 14, almost 15, right before he turned 15, we had had him at therapists since he was seven and they would all send them home and say that he was completely fine and he would just, he act differently. I just knew he was different. And I literally, you know, would cry because I didn't know how to parent him. And I thought, well, if there's, if it's not an issue with him, then it must be something wrong with me. I'm a bad parent. And so I had that and we had him diagnosed and unfortunately his father doesn't want to believe that he is on the spectrum. So we actually got a second diagnosis from Phoenix children's hospital and he still does not want to believe it or label him with that. But he has, if you're not familiar, Asperger's is very, it's very high functioning. Like he's, I mean, he's really, basically his brain just doesn't work quite the same in that he has anxiety, more anxiety than most people. And it has an issue with social skills and small talk. And now, now that we know, but it's just happened so late, but I do, I would like to say I'm so grateful. I just talked to a parent the other day and their son was 28 when he was diagnosed. So 15 is much better than 28. And again, because there's, so you see, he has the, an invisible disability and I don't even want to call it a disability. So disability it's that his mind works differently than neuro-typical people.
Billie Tarascio (22:07):
Right.
Dana Lam (22:07):
And, and so knowing that now is such a huge, I mean, it's just wonderful. Now we have something to work with and I'm really hoping that his dad will eventually come around to that, to, to help out with that situation. And so he just, he, Harrison is very challenging and I'm very honest with Harrison and today, and on the way to school, I, you know, I talked to him, I said, sometimes it's very hard to be your mom. I love you. And I will do anything to help you be successful, but because you're because of your Asperger's, it is very challenging for me. Hmm. So what, what is, how is, what are some of the ways that having a kiddo with Asperger's is very difficult? Well, he is for example, I, he doesn't know how to start or in sentences, and he doesn't know how to read body language of people. And so we are, that is something we are now working on with him, especially in his new school. And so I may ask him a question and if he doesn't want to answer me or he's, or we could be just having a conversation and he doesn't like what I asked him and he's done with the conversation, he will just turn and walk away and go in his room and slam the door or he'll kind of react or, or blow up to something that is small. For example, he asked me the other day and I'm really proud of him. He said, I want to make, I need to get my teeth cleaned. Can I make the appointment? And so he was trying to make it for him and his brother and going back and forth with the woman to try to find, and it overwhelmed him.
Dana Lam (23:44):
And he's like, I can't do this. And he just hands the phone to me. And so I told the woman, I said, my son has Asperger's, I'm really sorry, we'll call you back. And I, I had her call him. I said, I want him to do this. I want him to feel like he's done it and he's successful. So I had her call him and finalize the point appointment, which he, which he did when he was younger, like clothes bothered him, like he would, I would say, would you wear this? He would try on an outfit. And then all we would, I'd take the tags off and get him ready to go to school. And he would be like, Oh my God, I can't wear this. It, the seams are weird. Or the tag was weird or things. He's very, he was very sensitive to touch and things on his body. So I wasted a lot of money. I'm saying Goodwill, Goodwill got a lot of brand new clothes that he refused to wear. Yeah.
Billie Tarascio (24:36):
Yeah. I have two kiddos with ADHD. And what you're describing is, is sort of similar to my experience, not just with my ADHD kiddos, but with all kiddos, like sometimes they get they're experiencing something. And the way that that manifests is that they're being very disrespectful or that they're being very, very difficult. And you know, they're just experiencing that moment very differently than you or I, as moms are. But having that information to know, okay, this is how they're experiencing it, by learning more about, you know, sensory processing issues and sensitivity to seams can really help us make better choices and not feel so guilty for being crappy parents with poorly behaved children.
Dana Lam (25:21):
Right. Right. And I think that's one of his dad's issues is that he gets embarrassed by Harrison that because of how he acts and because somebody may come up and introduce themselves and hire, want to shake their hand and he might just completely ignore them and look down at the ground. There's a great book called look me in the eye because it's very hard for people with Asperger's to look people in the eye. Or I took him to work one day and there were people there and he normally works alone and he literally could not physically get out of the car. He's like, I can't, I can't go in there. I can't go in there because he doesn't really like talking to people.
Billie Tarascio (25:59):
Yeah. Yeah. I can understand how this would be massively challenging and it's probably many times when you have children with disabilities and I don't, I agree with you, it, I don't really want to call it an, a disability, but he's neurologically atypical or neurologically different and he's he processes the world differently. And oftentimes that can make for a very stressful environment for two parents in a marriage, trying to figure out their child. Was that an issue for you all?
Dana Lam (26:33):
You know, I think it was, it was challenging raising Harrison, when he was, like I said, it probably really became stressful when he was about seven and we divorced when he was eight. I mean, that's not the reason definitely why we are divorced. We, we lost, we became business partners. We were in the business of raising two kids and we lost our connection and our romantic partnership. And that's why our relationship ended. We, we lost our affinity for each other. And so definitely not having, you know, Harrison, wasn't the cause of our relationship. It did add stress to our relationship of course, and instill, and still does sometimes, especially when, you know, his father doesn't believe that he has a disability and the new school, I have a mad, I mean, it was so such a wonderful relief. One of the parents there that works there, she said, I totally, I go, she goes, do you want to invite your dad on this phone call? And I'm like, well, he doesn't, he doesn't see that he has a disability. And she says, I totally understand. My daughter's father was the same way. And it was just such a, it was such a relief to, to meet somebody else who had a similar experience.
Billie Tarascio (27:44):
Yes, absolutely. There's so many lessons here because you've got you're co-parenting and you're not doing what you originally decided to do. You change the plan, you change the plan because you started out with an equal parenting time schedule and that wasn't best for you and your family anymore. And so you changed it now, did you go through the courts to change it or did everybody just decide, this is how it's going to be? Yeah.
Dana Lam (28:10):
We just, he, he actually sent me an email, so I had, I had it in writing and, you know, I I've actually thought about going back to court because I mean to, to do that whole process, part of me is like, don't poke the bear. Because I know it would also entitle me to a larger amount of, of child support. And I really don't care about that. I just want what's best for for Harrison. Right. And, and so I, I just really try to do the least amount of contact that, that I have to, and it was something that he just said, he thought it would be better if he was with me and, and full-time and that he would take care of son every other weekend. So we, we changed it and it wasn't an email. And maybe you can answer, I don't know what the ramifications are, are, are about that. I mean, that's just the way we've lived now for over a year. And, and then actually now he doesn't even go over there at all. Even, even though the weekends were challenging for his dad. And so his dad picks him up about once or twice a month and takes them to lunch or he's, or to dinner. And so tonight they're going to dinner. So he's really with us you know, 100% now.
Billie Tarascio (29:21):
So yes. So from the lawyer perspective, you absolutely can do that. There's nothing that prohibits parents from making those types of changes. The disadvantage of course, is that you're not receiving child support that reflects the amount of time and the amount of money and the amount of resources and effort that, that it takes to raise a child a hundred percent of the time. And the other thing I want to mention is for parents who do have children who are atypical in one way or the other you do have the ability to get child support beyond 18. Now that's not true in most circumstances, but it is true when you have a child with special needs. And so if you, if you find that your child needs more support past the age of 18, he's not ready. He's not like other 18 year olds and that's okay. You do have the opportunity to ask the court to continue that child support.
Dana Lam (30:09):
Oh, well, that's, that's very good to know. I'm glad we're having this conversation.
Billie Tarascio (30:13):
Absolutely. And, and it shouldn't be that way because your, your 18 year old, maybe won't be the same as your first son was when he hit 18. He maybe needs more support from you. It may be that you are required to continue parenting him in the way that you wouldn't otherwise have to, if he wasn't neurologically typical. And that's a responsibility that should be shared by both parents, not just one parent,
Dana Lam (30:37):
Right? There are a lot of extra expenses with, you know, different therapists and resources that I've used, like hiring an executive functioning coach for him. So there's those kinds of expenses that, you know, aren't really a medical expense, but, but yet they are because it's something that's something that he needs. And for him to be a functioning person in society and be able to have a job and those kinds of things, that's really with him. So thank you for sharing that. That's very helpful.
Billie Tarascio (31:12):
I completely agree with you. And it's not just that you can continue to get child support past 18. You also may qualify for an upward deviation of support because the way the child support calculator works is we have this model that says it costs X to raise kids. And of course that's average. And of course that's based on lots and lots and lots of kids, but if your child has special needs and special expenses that are, that are specific to them and, and parents have the resources personally, they make enough income to provide those resources. Then the actual child support amount in the calculator is really not the appropriate amount for child support. So even though we didn't mean to talk about those things necessarily, I'm glad we got there because it's important to now. The other thing that I wanted to talk to you about was you said, you know, my ex husband and I divorced because we lost an affinity for one another. And I can tell you after having, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands of consultations with people who are divorcing that, that is almost always the case that they have lost a friendship, they've lost a connection. So in your experience from working with couples who is a good candidate to come back, and when are you too far gone in your relationship?
Dana Lam (32:30):
That's a very, that is a very, very good question. So when I, for myself personally, I know when I approached my husband, you know, it in, it was probably October or November, I was willing to really work on the relationship. I wanted to save my relationship and he wasn't interested at that point. And so I think in that process, because I, I, and I, in hindsight, I wish I would have tried a little bit harder. I wish I would've done a little bit more than I did, but you don't know what you don't know. Right. And so I would say if you, if you are still at a point where you have, you know, some feelings or can get to that point, I mean, I, I say if, especially, if you have children involved, do everything you can to save your relationship. If, if it is solvable and you can get back to that place where you love each other, and you have affinity because you don't want your kids.
Dana Lam (33:25):
I mean, I don't want my kids growing up in a home that obviously there isn't love there. And there isn't that connection. And there isn't that romance. I want to be in a healthy relationship and show them by example. But if you've loved that person at one point, and you can do what you can to, to create that again. And it may take a little bit of time. I think one of the things you can do is write down what are you grateful for? What are the five things that you love about your partner and like about them and, and, you know, Marty and I still struggle. I mean, They're, I mean, we're human, we're human. There are times
Dana Lam (33:57):
That we're busy working and, you know, raising the kids and we have our, our business that we're working on and, and he's maybe traveling and I'm not seeing him. And I'm not feeling that affinity toward, I'm not feeling that connection. I can, I'm aware of it and I can feel that it's gone. And so typing him even like, like just taking a couple deep breaths, thinking about him and what I love and appreciate about him and sending him a text message about that. Or maybe typing up a love note to let him know, just being in that gratitude moment helps me to get that connection with him again. So I would try some of those things to see if you can, there was a point then where I started to go through, as you were saying, where I started to go, okay, this is what, this is how I'm going to get out of this relationship.
Dana Lam (34:44):
And this is what our life is going to look like. And when I said I wanted to divorce in January, then all of a sudden he wanted to be husband of the year. Then he started doing all of those things. And I tried for probably four months to date him again and allow him to woo me. And every time I kissed him, it felt like he was my brother. You know, it's like, I didn't hate him, but I just was not physically attracted to him at all. And it kind of grossed me out. And I just couldn't, I, I really did try. And he had waited too late and it was to that point of no return. Yeah.
Billie Tarascio (35:21):
So intervene early and often. And, and you just gave us a formula if you are a couple, or if you are a, you know, someone listening to this and you're, you're married and you're contemplating divorce, and you're wondering, you know, can I save this? Dana just gave us a formula, number one, write a love or a text of gratitude. And don't ask anything, just tell this person how you feel about them and what you, what you value. And then number two, you didn't say this, but I think you, I think number two is ask them if they will go on a date and go on a date and see how it goes, and then number three, kiss and see how you feel about it. Yes, that is great. And make the data surprise. Actually just tell them, Hey cause sometimes people are like, I don't know if my partner will do it, or if they'll reciprocate a date and I'm like, you know what, we'll take the lead, show them how it's done, you know, say, Hey honey, be ready. You know, Saturday at six o'clock and where you're, you know, date night casual and don't tell them what you're doing and just surprise them.
Dana Lam (36:27):
And the cool thing about that is there's no whining, there's no complaining. And just, you know, I think that we, we feel so grateful that somebody took the time to think about us and plan something special for us and see if you can you know, reignite your passion.
Billie Tarascio (36:42):
So exciting. I'm signing up today. Thank you for all of your time. This has been a great episode. I really appreciate it.
Dana Lam (36:49):
Oh, thank you so much for having me Billie. And it was very informative for me too. So thank you for having me on we'll talk again soon.
Billie Tarascio (36:56):
Thanks so much for listening to the Modern Divorce podcast. Remember anything you've heard today or anything you read online is not the replacement for actual consultation with an attorney and does not create an attorney-client relationship. Even if you called in and spoke to you, you are anonymous and we don't have your details and you've not become a client at modern law. However, we would love to speak with you, or you should seek out their advice of legal counsel counseling or any other expert interview. And if you have an idea for a show topic, or you need to speak Arizona, you can reach me at info. I N f@mymodernlaw.com.