High Asset Divorces: Analyzing the Jeff Bezos divorce

When it comes to splitting up property and money with your ex, are you leaving too much money on the table? Can you get a better deal with your spouse if you negotiate harder, or in a better way?

In this Modern Divorce podcast episode, your host, Billie Tarascio talks with her Modern Law colleague Darin Colburn about the asset and money split between Amazon owner Jeff Bezos, one of the richest men in the world, and his ex wife MacKenzie Scott. The discussion has some critical negotiating points for anyone splitting up assets in a divorce, including things you are absolutely entitled to, and assessing your real value and contributions during a marriage.

Some people may be interested in striking a quick deal and getting OUT of the marriage, but in other cases, people may be more interested in doing a deep dive into hidden assets or mis-valued assets. This is a fascinating breakdown of things you need to know during a divorce.

For more information, contact the Modern Law team at info@mymodernlaw.com, or stop by our website at MyModernLaw.com

Transcript

Billie Tarascio (00:01):

Hello, and welcome to the modern divorce podcast. I'm your host, Billie Tarascio. I'm the owner of modern law, a family law firm in the Phoenix area. I've been a divorce attorney for more than 15 years. I've got four kiddos and I'm divorced myself. And on this podcast, we're going to cover everything related to divorce. Be it legal issues, financial issues, children issues, blended family issues, counseling mediation, and more. I hope you enjoyed the podcast.

Billie Tarascio (00:29):

Hi, this is Billie Tarascio with the modern divorce podcast for another special edition with attorney Jaron Goldberg, Darin Colburn. How are you doing Darin?

Darin Colburn (00:39):

I'm doing good. I can be Golburn today.

Billie Tarascio (00:41):

Totally. I'm tongue tied. I'm so excited to record this because we've been talking about, we're talking about Jeff Bezos and his divorce from MacKenzie Bezos since we started thinking about talking about celebrity divorces, and finally the time has come for us to talk about this. And it's so interesting from a divorce attorney perspective for so many reasons. So Darren first, can you give us some background on Jeff McKenzie, Lauren, and their divorce?

Darin Colburn (01:14):

I'll let you, I'll let you handle Lauren, but I'll, I'll fill with Jeff and Ma. But so everyone knows Amazon. It's basically pervasive users millions, millions users across the globe really revolutionized the way that commerce works. And but you know, that all started with Jeff Bezos and Amazon, and the idea of selling books online and at the time Jeff Bezos, back in the early nineties, he was a a wall street guy with managing hedge fund. And McKinsey was actually working with him. She was like, I think a couple offices down from him and they, they got married shortly after they started dating. And so they she's been a part of his journey and part of Amazon's rise basically through and through. And so at the time when they were married, they were, they lived in New York.

Billie Tarascio (02:17):

Jeff decided he wanted to pursue his dream of of this publishing company McKinsey, again, who also worked at this hedge fund is very very credentialed, very bright. She kind of at her own aspirations, which was to be an author. And so I think it's interesting cause it was just kind of synergy there and she's actually now bestselling published author. It doesn't hurt that like the biggest book distributor in the world, but I can't comment on the books. I'm sure they're good. But but even they they basically up in, and their very cushy lives to pursue this dream. And originally ended up moving to Texas. She drove she drove him across country while he was like working on his business plan and it was very in an interview, she said that the thing that engaged her was the you know, Jeff is somebody, you know, they very much in love very happy and to see your spouse be passionate about something or something she was on board for.

Darin Colburn (03:21):

And you know, I think that definitely plays a role into like community property theory. Long story short, they ended up moving to Washington which is where Amazon is kind of famously headquartered. And that's where they kind of built this empire together. I mean, they really did build it together because he can't achieve that level of success without having, you know, a happy home life I would imagine. But you know, he tends to get all the credit, their divorces. Billy we'll get into the kind of salacious details, but then divorce is famous and interesting because Amazon is a publicly traded company, one of the largest companies in the world. So we don't have all the details of the of their divorce, but we do know the biggest portions because their biggest asset is Amazon shares and that's publicly traded. So we know what Jeff Bezos stake in Amazon was worth when they filed for divorce. And we know how much she received. She basically received about 25% and which was like $36 billion at the time. And arguably she was entitled to double that. Well, not arguably, I mean, pretty, pretty definitively. She's entitled to double that, which is kind of interesting. So

Billie Tarascio (04:41):

Absolutely it is, it is interesting. So Mackenzie walks away with far less than she then she was entitled to. And yet she's still the richest woman I think, in the country. Is that right? Did you tell me that

Darin Colburn (04:58):

At the time? So at the time of their divorce with the 36 million, she became the richest woman in the country, but because of Amazon's performance through the pandemic, she is now the richest woman in the world. So her 36, her $36 billion has basically doubled anyway. Now Jeff Bezos is shares have also skyrocketed. Yeah. So,

Billie Tarascio (05:27):

So how long were they married?

Darin Colburn (05:30):

Well, I believe they got an a, I believe they got married in 1993, so,

Billie Tarascio (05:35):

And the divorce was 2019, right? I think it was 2000.

Darin Colburn (05:38):

Yeah. 2019. They announnced it now. I believe in early January. And so that would put them like 20, 26 years there. Right.

Billie Tarascio (05:50):

And they have four kids. Is that correct?

Darin Colburn (05:53):

I have no idea. Okay.

Billie Tarascio (05:55):

All right. So we don't know how many kids they, but the crazy thing about their divorce is that their breakup was so public. And the details that came out about the breakup were so salacious, and then you have the divorce and we know nothing about it. It was completely private. So we can't find anything. We don't know if they did collaborative law. We don't know if they did private mediation. If they filed documents in the court, those documents were sealed and you know, you and I have talked about this, how you can get your case sealed, but couples don't do that very often. They don't take the steps needed to seal a case. Certainly Jeff Bezos and McKinsey did. And what's so remarkable is you've got this long-term marriage. You've got these people who built this family, this life, this empire together, they seem so happy.

Billie Tarascio (06:50):

I've read that he was a really good husband that when she finished her first book or maybe it was her second book, he said, I'm canceling my meetings for the week. So I can read and edit her book. Like he was a devoted husband and she was a devoted wife. Then they have this crazy breakup that really surrounds a very salacious affair that he has with Hollywood Hollywood reporter or Lauren Sanchez. And yet they still managed to get divorced where she walks away with way less than she was entitled to. And, and doesn't even say a word about it says nothing but positive things about her husband.

Darin Colburn (07:29):

It's interesting too. This is not directly related, but as far as the salaciousness, one, one thing that I found really interesting because it, it does give you some insight into how these people think. Many people know Jeff Bezos was blackmailed because he basically how we all found out about the, the affair was somebody hacked his I believe it might've been Lauren's brother who facilitated this, but don't quote me on that. But any event some very unfortunate photos will say compromising photos of, of Jeff Bezos, the richest man in the world was was hacked. And they basically said, if you don't, if you don't pay us an exorbitant of money, we're going to publish this. Well, Jeff Bezos published the photos himself and wrote an article about it and said, if I can't stand it up to blackmail, who can and at that time as far as we know, I mean, nobody knows what goes inside the home, but as far as we know that was, nobody knew about the affair. So he kind of outdid himself to take a stand against blackmail. And I I've just always found that to be interesting. Reminds

Billie Tarascio (08:46):

Me of Alexander Hamilton.

Speaker 4 (08:49):

That was the scheme neither until right now

Billie Tarascio (08:57):

Didn't work out so well for Hamilton Bezos seems to have fared well. So maybe this works better in business than it does in politics.

Darin Colburn (09:04):

He is, he is willing obviously to do to be ballsy. I think the other thing that's interesting too, is McKenzie. So there's this giving pledge that, that Warren buffet has has initiated that, that a lot of the world's richest people have signed on to Jeff Bezos kind of family has famously, has not. Other, other people are Richard Branson bill Gates and ranging from donating you know, half of their net worth either during their lifetime or upon their decease to charity and charitable endeavors or philanthropy to up to 99% of it. And bayzos has not signed onto that Mackenzie Bezos has. And I think that to me, gives me some insight into who she is as a person. She's obviously not concerned with maximizing her wealth beyond a certain point. Otherwise she wouldn't give, give away half of it. And Jeff Bezos, I was, I mean, he hasn't, I mean, who knows, but he hasn't signed onto the pledge, so it's more important to him. So I think that's an interesting dynamic.

Billie Tarascio (10:16):

It is interesting. And it's, it's the real reason that you and I wanted to discuss this is because I always, my position was always, why did Mackenzie walk away with 25%? And it's even less than that because she didn't take the Washington post.

Darin Colburn (10:33):

Right, right. That's just Amazon,

Billie Tarascio (10:36):

Just Amazon. So she walked away with far less than she was entitled to. And given the circumstances surrounding the divorce, she could have used that as leverage. She could have used the drama of the Lauren Sanchez situation to get more, at least possibly.

Darin Colburn (11:04):

Right. and in Washington it's the statutes it's community property, state. It's no fault. But my understanding from reading about it is that the courts have a certain amount of discretion. It's similar to Arizona in that it's an equitable distribution which most of the time means equal, but doesn't necessarily mean equal. The thing that is interesting is, you know, it is not uncommon for spouses business owners to try to compromise because of the cost of litigating. Like, for example, if you're married to somebody who owns in auto repair business or a dental practice or you name it right. Determining the value of these things is is complicated and of itself. And it's open to a lot of debate you can have. And it's very, very expensive. Oftentimes involves both people, hiring experts, it's spending a lot of money.

Darin Colburn (12:07):

So sometimes people will make concessions because they don't have the resources to spend on, on litigating a case. These, both of these people absolutely had all the resources to litigate. Also, you don't need a business valuation determined what Jeff Bezos stake in Amazon is because that's what share prices are for. So it's like very complicated. I'm sure their entire, the entirety of the assets are very complicated because they're wealthy. They probably have properties and things all over the world, but in terms of the majority of their wealth, it's very simple because it's just tied to the majority of the wealth is going to be tied to Amazon shares. And you just look at the number of shares and, and and that day is prices, right? So

Billie Tarascio (12:52):

You're right. You're right. And here's with couples that we talk to all the time, there are couples that come to us or, or clients that come to us that say, I know half is X, but I want to take way less than that. Or I'm good to take way less than that. And it's just a different mentality. It's just a different point of view. And, and then there are others who are, who come to us and they say, I want to make sure that I get as much as I can, that I walk away in the best position that I can. And it always puts us as lawyers, I think in a little bit of a difficult situation, because sometimes when people are willing to take much, much less than half it's because they like Mackenzie are making a calculated choice for what they want and what's in their best interest and what's important to them and what's enough.

Billie Tarascio (13:52):

And then other times there's, and we don't know what's going on in Mackenzie's head, but other times, many people feel guilty asking for half, especially if they're not the spouse that did most of the actual labor. They might feel like they don't deserve half. They've been told their whole marriage. They haven't worked or they don't deserve half. And we don't know if Mackenzie felt that way. We don't know. And that's hard for me when I hear people, usually women who are, who, who are ready to walk away with far less than they could, because they don't feel worthy. I always have a hard time as an attorney respecting those wishes.

Darin Colburn (14:29):

Hmm. Yeah. And, and sometimes that comes from years of conditioning. You know, w what happens within the marital home? I, I can tell you her attorneys have the easiest job in the world. I mean, the reality is like, in a case like this, there's no pressure in terms of costs to settle. So the only reason the deal got done is because McKenzie wanted it to get done in, in, I can say that for a pretty high degree of confidence. It's like, she's not, she's not saying, Hey, let's not go over this. Cause I, I mean, she valued keeping things. I mean these, they have kids together, right? The other, the other thing that is interesting, there's lots of theories out there. One thing that I've heard that I thought was interesting is that, you know, a bulk of her wealth is now tied to Amazon which is kind of tie very much tied to Jeff Bezos.

Darin Colburn (15:35):

Although now I guess the recent news is he's stepping down. But I've heard a theory that maybe she thought that if, if things were less stressful and she were able to keep him in a good Headspace, her shares are gonna continue to go up because she had faith in him continuing to perform a CEO. And that has in fact, you know, not all because of Bezos the pandemics had a lot to do with it and do with it. But I mean, he did position the company to take advantage of a situation like this. But maybe she had some foresight there, but again, the other side of the coin is Bezos sheriffs have also skyrocketed.

Billie Tarascio (16:17):

Yeah. It's, I mean, it's a good point maybe, maybe, but, you know, would he have performed less? Well, if he only had half, I doubt it. And generally speaking, yeah,

Darin Colburn (16:27):

No, you wouldn't perform less. Well, if you had half, but he was involved in a contentious litigation that could certainly impact, I think the, his performance, yeah.

Billie Tarascio (16:36):

Contentious litigation is, is a problem. And, you know, Mackenzie is not the one who leaked the affair, the Jeff and Mackenzie timed and collaborated on their divorce announcement. And they used conscious uncoupling language language that said, we've been working on this, we've decided to move forward. And they did this right before the salacious, Dick pics and text messages were leaked and that she knew in advance. She knew before that. And it wasn't long after that, that they finalize their deal. It's just, it really gives us an interesting insight into her psychology. Does she really not think she could have gotten a better deal without, you know, long lengthy litigation? She certainly knows her husband better than we do. Does she think this was as good as it could be? Or was she just like, I want to be done?

Darin Colburn (17:32):

Yeah, I got it. I imagine it's that you wanted to be done because again, the, just let's say, let's say we didn't value the Washington post because that, that would be a little, that's a little more arbitrary. Just looking at the shares know she could have gotten more, I mean, any, the worst lawyer could walk into court and say, your honor, look at his share prices. And again, she doesn't, he doesn't even, you don't even have to coordinate some kind of we don't even have to coordinate some kind of complicated buyout provision. You just have to give her half the shares. Like it it's a, and again, like it it's complicated, but also really simple. And I think that for whatever reason, she made a decision to, to just kind of keep things amicable. The other thing, in addition to just the money he was able to retain all the voting rights for the shares that she was awarded. And, and obviously, I mean, he's a CEO of his company. It's his baby. That's very important to him. She could have, she could have certainly used that as leverage if she wanted to get more because even, even beyond the money his ability to control the company, I mean, these are in his world, that's a big thing. And she basically took the shares, but said, you can, you can take my voting rights.

Billie Tarascio (18:59):

So you're absolutely right. She has all the leverage and she left so much on the table and I personally think it was a mistake and she should have done better. Yeah.

Darin Colburn (19:10):

See, I, I think, you know I feel a little bit differently. And just because like, for me if I had 36 billion or 72 billion, it wouldn't, that doesn't make it. I can't imagine that has any difference to me personally. I think about and this is where I think personality comes into play because like I would wonder yes, I'm, I'm losing out on $32 billion, but what can I not do with $36 billion that I want to do? It's true financially. And so I think the interesting things about these high high high network cases is the boat. The stakes are both ay, but they're also really low because there's no outcome where her like wildest needs are not taken care of. And so there could be a sense of cognitive dissonance between, you know, at what point are these, are we just talking about numbers on a page? You know,

Billie Tarascio (20:15):

You're absolutely right. The difference between 36 and 72 doesn't make a difference in whether or not she can work or has to work. Doesn't make a difference in where she could live as a practical matter. She can still have anything and everything she wants. And so how does this choice, this dilemma translate to our clients who are trying to decide, do I settle and cut my losses and walk away and claim peace, or do I move forward and try to get, try to leave my marriage in as best a position as possible?

Darin Colburn (20:55):

Well, I, again, I think you have to look at the, the stakes, right? So if the offer on the table if it's a good deal, like if it's if we can just look at Amazon, if we could just look at stocks and say, we'll split it 50 50, and we can get that to be any of the case without going to trial, it's going to be less expensive. It's going to be more amicable. There's no doubt that's better for everyone. It's less strain on the resources, but oftentimes things don't happen that way. You have to negotiate back and forth. I think you have to look at what's at stake for people big issues, one of the most divisive issues in Arizona, at least it's spousal maintenance because judges have such broad discretion. So you have to look at if somebody is offering you a thousand dollars a month and you need 1500, you've done your budget.

Darin Colburn (21:44):

You've been as lean as you can be. And, you know, you need $1,500. Well, you don't really have the luxury of compromise and taking a thousand because it's below your, your needs threshold. Right? And then you also have to consider the, the cost of proceeding in the litigation. I don't, I honestly don't think that any of these things were considerations for her. I guess the question is for our high net worth clients are your, are your needs taken care of, are you going to be able to, I mean, are you going to be able to take care of your children? I mean, both these people have generational wealth, you know,

Billie Tarascio (22:21):

It's true. So when you're, when you're doing this cost benefit analysis, when you're trying to decide, cause it's so hard, you have so many decisions to make when you're going through a divorce, so many decisions, and one of the most difficult decisions is, should I take this settlement offer, right? There's a few ways to analyze it. One way is purely financial. How much money am I leaving on the table? Right. And how much money will it cost me to recoup that money? And then what's the risk. So you can only win when we ask the question, how much money am I leaving on the table? Some of that is certain ish, right? And some of it is very uncertain. Yes. When we, when we're talking about spousal maintenance, it can be very, very uncertain when we're talking about property division. It's more certain, but we've still got an equitable division and then we've got the cost of litigation. So the cost of litigation is always an estimate. How much do we think it's going to cost to go to trial? We can get pretty close, but it's an estimate. The spousal maintenance is, is just so big. We don't know how much we're leaving on the table and how much we're leaving on the table also could mean different things. It could mean how much will the judge give me, or it could mean, can I get a better deal with my spouse if I negotiate harder or in a different way.

Darin Colburn (23:43):

Right. And the other thing too, in terms of properties like with, with the business you may not know what the value of the businesses are like the judge thinks the value is until, until you get the ruling, because you can have you know, an expert that says the business is worth a million dollars. And another expert will say it's worth $500,000. And maybe the judge picks one of those numbers. Maybe they pick somewhere in between. You don't know until the judge does it. All you can do is trust your expert and do do the best best work possible to try to maximize the outcome that you want.

Billie Tarascio (24:21):

Absolutely. And I think we should do an entire podcast about business valuations, attacking them one expert. This is another expert because it's fascinating. And those business, those divorces are some of the most difficult because the business is a massive asset that could swing both ways. And the way you litigate that case, the expert that you hire, the way that you attack that can have such an impact, but it can also have a big impact on how you position yourself for settlement. Now, we don't know if Jeff and Mackenzie used a mediator or if they sat down at a kitchen table and worked it out us. If you were, if you were, if you were going into mediation, how would you do that with a case like this?

Darin Colburn (25:10):

I, you know, I don't know. It would, it would be hard to, it would be both hard and easy to negotiate a case like this. I think that the challenge, you really have to sit down with your client and figure out what their objectives are. These are both very, very intelligent people. And what I mean, like the first conversation I'd have with Mackenzie is do you here's what you're entitled to, right? Here's not just in terms of value. This is how it should work, but also information. And do you understand the entirety of your assets? Do you understand, you know, everything from top to bottom, because again, these people could have accounts in the Caymans and, you know, businesses with it. I mean, there could be, they could be owners of thousands of businesses, right? Do you want us, we can get all that information.

Darin Colburn (26:09):

We can value it and we can inventory it. We can do that. From top to bottom, is that what you're interested in or are you interested in striking a quick deal and moving on? Right. because I think you have to have that conversation upfront because w you have to figure out where she's at, right. And then figuring out what information do we do you need to get. And if, if you're looking for a settlement I mean, that really controls what type mediator you get as well. If like you don't need a really sophisticated mediator to negotiate the deal that they brokered. Right. you would need a very sophisticated meteor if we're trying to inventory everything. Yeah. So I don't know. Those are kinda my thoughts.

Billie Tarascio (27:03):

The other thing is like, where was Jeff and where was his head space? He was madly crazy out of his mind behaving like a different person in LA. His behavior was so uncharacteristic of J of Jeff Bezos. And it's continued, Jeff and Lauren are still going strong. They, he, wasn't making rational choices during that time. It's unlike Jeff Bezos to behave brazenly and to be with a married woman out in public, he knows better, but he was still caught in that situation again and again. And so sometimes our clients have that happen. They're getting divorced from their spouse. And they're saying to me, I don't know who this person is. This behavior is so out of character. And it might be because they've fallen madly in love, and they're acting crazy. It might be because they're using drugs or, or going through a bipolar episode or, and they're not making rational choices.

Billie Tarascio (28:17):

And it's possible that McKinsey said, I don't want to do this. It is not emotionally worth it. So we've got the cost benefit analysis in terms of dollars. And then we've got, what is the emotional toll? And the emotional toll is not the same for each person, because some people have a high tolerance for conflict and risk and, and stress and other people do not. And they know that that, that the toll that the conflict and the stress and court would take on them is worth much, much more than it would be to somebody else.

Darin Colburn (28:53):

And that I think is comes more into play when you're in that kind of Maslov's hierarchy of needs thing where no matter what happens, you're taking care of to a certain degree. So what is, what is the value? I mean, to very, very wealthy people. I don't think anything is more important to them than their time, right. Because that's kind of the great equalizer of a song I can imagine being in that position. It's like, all right, I, I'm gonna have everything I need. Do I want to have a good day tomorrow or a stressful day tomorrow? And what things can I do to control that? And again, I mean, I, I, I doubt she had, I, I doubt that, you know, both of, well, it's kind of interesting. I can't really imagine Jeff Bezos, like following the device, the advice of a divorce attorney, it would be a very difficult client to have because he's probably more sophisticated than most people, including attorneys. And he employs a lot of attorneys, right? Like

Billie Tarascio (30:03):

Thinking the same thing. Like we're not telling them how to divide their assets. They're educating us about the, about the accounts and the Cayman.

Darin Colburn (30:09):

Yeah. but yeah, I think that's a very valid point. And I think I got to imagine that played a role in it. The other thing that's important to consider is we don't know we don't know what behind the scenes contracts they, they did when you get divorced. You know, we know the biggest picture was, which is Amazon because it's publicly traded, but you can do, what's called a property settlement agreement, which is basically a private contract. And nobody's ever going to know the terms of that. And, and you can be as creative in that as you want to. Maybe she wanted to make sure that there are certain provisions and in his will, you know, the court, the court would never necessarily order that. But he could agree to it contractually to make sure that the kids are taken care of or, or, I mean, who knows your name, if they can, they can do it. So there, there could be a lot more going on behind the scenes that we, we don't know about.

Billie Tarascio (31:06):

It's true. And the other thing to consider is, you know, I don't know how Washington tends to order parenting time, but they have four kids. And if, if it was very important for Mackenzie to not have to deal with Jeff, let's say, Mackenzie didn't want to deal with Jeff. And she didn't want to have parenting time exchanges. She wanted to keep the kids and she wanted to let them figure out their relationship with their dad on their own terms. It is much better in that situation to get a private settlement. And that might've been worth millions of dollars.

Darin Colburn (31:40):

Yeah. I imagine, again, if you're kind of like, once you hit a certain stratosphere, there are certain things that money can't buy, right. And, and money can't buy your children's relationship with their parents. Right? You can't, you can't control certain things. So maybe she felt like if I take this path, I can maximize these things that are basically invaluable to me. 

Billie Tarascio (32:05):

I want to raise my kids the way I want to, I don't want the court to have anything to do with it. I don't want to have a custody schedule. I don't want to be told how I have to share my children or what I can and can't do with them. And therefore I'm, I'm trading this for adults.

Darin Colburn (32:21):

Yeah. And that is you know, that really is a luxury to be able to do that. So you know, it's funny, I read a blog to that of philanthropists that are upset that she didn't negotiate more because she, she, she gave up half her net worth. They're like, Hey, you just, you just screwed us out of $17 billion. You know, it's just kind of funny that like, yeah,

Billie Tarascio (32:49):

World might've been better off. Kenzie had negotiated a little harder, but who knows?

Darin Colburn (32:55):

Yeah. And, and we'll never know, but it is, it is really interesting. And it, it could have been a lot more public, you know, I wonder what would've happened to Amazon stock. They had like an assay of divorce.

Billie Tarascio (33:11):

You know, the pandemic was probably like, I do more shopping on Amazon now than I ever did. And I did Amazon shopping before now, but now it's, it's my go-to. And I think that I'm not alone and nobody could have predicted just how, just how the world and the pandemic would change Amazon. But I think that you're right, Mackenzie knew and knows that Jeff is brilliant and Jeff built something and he knows what he's doing. And she bet on him. You know, in 1993, when she, and maybe, maybe not every single part of that bet worked out, but a lot of it did. And so, and maybe she's at the point where she can be like, you know, we got 25 years in and we had a good run

Darin Colburn (34:00):

And you know what, they both obviously like, they both obviously like adventure, because I can't imagine that that must, I mean, they, they had very stable, high paying jobs on wall street. It's not like they you know it's not like he was working a low income job and then took a shot. He left a very stable thing to take a shot. And she was along for that ride which shows a certain level of adventure. And that could have played a role too, because this is kind of a new a new adventure. Right.

Billie Tarascio (34:37):

I'm very interested. I wish we knew more, you know, we're used to, we're used to knowing more, we're used to seeing more. And I'm very curious to see who Mackenzie ends up with and what McKenzie does, because she is a very interesting, very quiet character in this, in this whole situation.

Darin Colburn (34:55):

Right. Do you think if you could ask her one question, I guess if you could find out one piece, if you could ask one question and get an answer, what do you think it would be?

Billie Tarascio (35:07):

Why did you wait?

Darin Colburn (35:13):

I'm surprised nobody's term, you know, it's weird. I will tell you, I have, I have Googled that question. You know, and I have not seen anything from her. I I've seen a lot of, really, in my opinion, poor opinions. Like it, there's really, it's an obvious question and nobody's really asking it which is kind of funny. I think there is a prevailing sentiment, which is a problem that she that she did. Okay. Even though she got less than half because she got a lot, but in general, I think that, that, that can trickle down to people that aren't worth $72 billion. Right. and that's kind of right.

Billie Tarascio (36:01):

Can you elaborate on that?

Darin Colburn (36:03):

Yeah. There's a, there's a sentiment that I think there's a, I noticed online a lot fewer voices that are, are kind of taking the position that you've said is like, Hey, she should've shot fought for more. And I think in general, there's a prevailing sentiment that she got what she deserved, even though it's less than half because Jeff Bezos built the empire. Right. That's kind of what people think. But really, I mean, like we said, at the beginning, she was a part of that and that's what community property is all about. And the concern is how does that trickle down? You know, someone who's worth $400,000 where these numbers kind of matter a little bit more,

Billie Tarascio (36:47):

What does, what does, I mean, it's, it's an interesting question. What does this high profile divorce do to everyday couples who are getting divorced, who have, let's say a million dollar in assets, you know, D does the business owner husband with the net worth of a million dollars, say to his wife, you know, you're getting $250,000 stop being greedy.

Darin Colburn (37:12):

Well, it happens all the time. It happens all the time in our world. 

Billie Tarascio (37:18):

I, I can't turn off the staunch feminist in me. That's like, Mackenzie, what do you do in you? Could've, you could've done a lot with that money.

Darin Colburn (37:27):

This is about every other, every other girl in the world. You know, I feel you on that. I feel you.

Billie Tarascio (37:33):

And it's the other thing is like most people, for most people, divorce is a huge financial hit. And for me, like my general philosophy is like, life is about maximizing your choices because success is about cumulative decision-making and cumulative gains. So, and this is one of the most crucial decisions. So one of the decisions that we make that affects us very, very much is, you know, where do we go to college? And what degree do we get? And what's her first job. But every single time we make a decision who do we marry? Whether or not we have kids. And especially the decisions that we make when we get a divorce will have a cumulative impact on our future and our ability and our choices. And so when I have a client, I really want to advocate to get them in the best possible position that I, that I can get them in.

Darin Colburn (38:24):

Right. Yeah. As you should. Warren buffet once said the most important, important decision you'll ever make is who you marry. And then he's you know, he's up there. Add to that. I don't think

Billie Tarascio (38:36):

He's wrong, but also when to get a divorce, right?

Darin Colburn (38:39):

Yeah. That's great. Warren Buffett had a happy, I had, I had a happy marriage. Yeah.

Billie Tarascio (38:44):

You are married to somebody who, who is, who is taking away from your cumulative opportunities. Who's, who's making bad choices after bad choices. Then at some point you have to decide, what am I going to cut my losses? What am I better off not continuing in this marriage. So I'm happy for Warren.

Darin Colburn (39:02):

Yeah. Yeah. Well, he, I think he's remarried his first wife PA passed away. But they were married for a long time and she was basically along for his ride. But I think I forgot what I was going to say. No, I,

Billie Tarascio (39:24):

I think we may have beaten the bayzos horse to death.

Darin Colburn (39:28):

The Bezos horse is beaten to death. I wish them, you know, I, I guess when one more thought would be hindsight can kind of be 20, 20 it's it's hard now that we know that Amazon's done so well over the last, you know, two years, it's, it's hard to rewrite that out of your narrative, but I mean, as somebody that owns stocks, it's, it's it's, you never know what's going to happen. You want them to go up, but sometimes they go down. I mean she got, she certainly got a certain outcome, you know,

Billie Tarascio (40:05):

Certain outcome. We never know, we never know. All we can do is make the best decision we can with the information we have at the time. And I just hope that when you're making these choices that you are not doing so that you understand your worth, your entitlement, that you understand that whatever the has been built during your marriage is a product of both people's efforts and McKenzie wasn't the CEO, but she was there brainstorming when they created Amazon supporting her husband, driving the car while he did the business plan.

Darin Colburn (40:44):

He was the first count too. She was,

Billie Tarascio (40:47):

She was in the business and, and, you know, everybody's, well, the prevailing opinion of you got enough, be happy with what's enough. You know, I just think we need to question that and we need to remember what the deal is when you get married, you get in the boat together and the boat either raises or sinks and whatever it is, you're in it together. And everybody should be in an equal ish position when they get divorced.

Darin Colburn (41:14):

Right. And I think, I mean, I don't, I don't have the stats in front of me, but I think there is a trend in divorce cases where generally speaking, if we're taught, you know, the traditional income earner there, their overall budgetary impact, even with payment of spousal maintenance improves post-divorce whereas their spouse's goes down. Right. What that means. So like, I'm let, let's say I'm married. You know, I think most in my, my wife didn't work well, it kind of sentiment. Why is divorce so expensive because it's worth it. Meaning it's, it's cheaper for me to pay her spousal maintenance than it is for, for me to continue to deal with all the expenses or whatever financial issues are going on. Whereas it's, you know, she's getting less financial support, post divorce in terms of cashflow, you know, that I, it's not an, it's not an equal, it's not an equal split by any, by any means.

Billie Tarascio (42:16):

Okay, let me, let me say this in another way. I think what I'm hearing you say is if you are the higher earning spouse and you feel like your spouse is not contributing to your overall gain and your ability to work and your ability to make money, it is cheaper for you to get out and pay maintenance than to stay in that, in that marriage when we're talking about a purely financial,

Darin Colburn (42:38):

Correct? Correct. I, I think in general, and that's certainly true in in Bezos. I mean, he, you know, his in his situation. But yeah, I think that that's you know, you don't exist even in community property States is what I'm saying. You don't exactly end up in equal flooding. It's not like,

Billie Tarascio (43:00):

So from the, from the higher income earning spouse's point of view, if you're in a marriage that you know is going to end, you are better off financially getting out earlier. And if you are in a marriage and you are financially earning less, it is in your interest to get as good of a deal as you can. Because, because in the long run, you are getting the short end of the stick. In terms of you both invested, you help build this career together, you know, he or she gets to take their earning capacity and continue to rise, and you do not have the same benefit. So you, you should maximize, you should walk away from the divorce in as good, a financial position as you can, and then continue to make decisions that increase your earning ability and your earning capacity.

Darin Colburn (43:47):

Yep. And as a wise attorney once told me, you only get one shot at it

Billie Tarascio (43:52):

At getting a divorce. It's true. You don't, you don't get a do over.

Darin Colburn (43:56):

So you gotta, you gotta be like Hamilton.

Billie Tarascio (43:58):

Yeah. Right. So many handles and references. Thank you, Darren. It has been fun as always. Bye bye.

Billie Tarascio (44:05):

Thanks so much for listening to the modern divorce podcast. Remember anything you've heard today or anything you read online is not the replacement for actual consultation with an attorney and does not create an attorney client relationship. Even if you called in and we spoke to you, you were anonymous and we don't have your details and you have not become a client of modern law. However, we would love to speak with you, or you should seek out the advice of legal counsel or counseling or any other expert near you. And if you have an idea for a show topic, or you need to speak with an attorney in Arizona, you can reach me @info@mymodernlaw.com.