Modern Divorce - The Do-Over For A Better You

Child custody strategies from a miracle worker

February 10, 2021
Modern Divorce - The Do-Over For A Better You
Child custody strategies from a miracle worker
Show Notes Transcript

Family law attorney Kylie Bigelow is known for her ability to pull out amazing outcomes from high drama, difficult and messy child custody divorces where a parent's ability to spend time with their child - and their longterm relationship - is on the line. In this episode, our host Billie Tarascio talks with Kylie about dealing with angry children, implanted memories, parental alienation and whether and when a therapist should be called into the mix.

If you're dealing with child custody issues, and possibly fighting with a child about maintaining your parenting (read: relationship) time with that child, then this is the must-listen podcast for developing a strategy to deal with your difficult situation.

To find out more about Kylie Bigelow, check her out at MyModernLaw.com.

Billie Tarascio (00:01):

Hello, and welcome to the modern divorce podcast. I'm your host, Billie Tarascio. I'm the owner of modern law, a family law firm in the Phoenix area. I've been a divorce attorney for more than 15 years. I've got four kiddos and I'm divorced myself. And on this podcast, we're going to cover everything related to divorce. Be it legal issues, financial issues, children issues, blended family issues, counseling mediation, and more. I hope you enjoyed the podcast.

Billie Tarascio (00:30):

Hi there. This is Billie Tarascio with the Modern Divorce podcast. And today I am pretty excited about this episode because I'm talking with a modern law attorney, Kylie Bigelow, and we are talking about all things challenging custody cases, therapeutic intervention of the behavioral roster and the new changes that came out. And she is the queen of challenging custody cases. Kylie, welcome to the show.

Kylie Bigelow (00:59):

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Billie Tarascio (01:00):

Absolutely. So I get to work with you every day and I know how incredible you are. She's just an incredible attorney at these very messy, complex custody cases, and she is able to turn around cases that are in just a dumpster and get great results for clients. Kylie, tell people a little bit about your background.

Kylie Bigelow (01:23):

Um so I've primarily worked in family law since law school. I did some, I wouldn't say boring, but definitely a lot less client focused legal work before dealing with debt, consumers and government relations, things like that. That just aren't, you know, as my opinion, fulfilling as working in family law. And I have kind of developed, I would say a niche in dealing specifically with these messy, complicated custody cases. And you're right, when you say it's, it's weird how I find these ways sometimes to figure out how to get out of these situations when client' s cases are just a complete disaster.

Billie Tarascio (02:07):

Kylie, I like to often tell people this Kylie has taken cases where a parent has supervised parenting time and ends up getting full custody. Like the things you do are just incredible. And I want to get into your brain and have you share a little bit about how you do that and what, what it is that you think parents can do when they're in a situation that is not going forward, not going well for them in court.

Kylie Bigelow (02:37):

A lot of these cases, I think people think that they have to do things a certain way, or it's almost, I always tell my clients, it's almost like a game of chess. There's special moves that we have to make. And sometimes it may not feel like it's the right thing to do, but it is and the person you're trying to impress the most because I'll say most of these cases ended up going to court,

Kylie Bigelow (03:00):

Very rarely do these very high conflict custody cases settle, and you have to impress the judge. It's, it's a show that you have to put on and there are certain things that you have to do to be able to persuade them. And a lot of times, you know, parents feel a certain way or they think things should be going a certain way and we just have to kind of reel them back in so that we can kind of start over from square one. So we can get to that point where we can show the judge that, Hey, you know, I'm not the crazy parent, there's a lot more going on to this.

Billie Tarascio (03:31):

I think what you just said is exactly right. And something that is difficult for a lot of people to hear because um you think that, you know, you're going to go get your day in the court or that your situation is unique. And the truth is that we as attorneys, especially in these cases are playing a game of chess and you are a character. And sometimes we're asking you to mold into a different character, because what you've done so far has not gotten you to the place where you want it.

Kylie Bigelow (03:59):

No, I completely agree. You know, a lot of times parents think being aggressive or, you know, finding dirt on their ex is going to win them in that complicated custody battle. And it's not, you know, it's, it's who is that reasonable parent that's showing up and doing what they're supposed to be doing. You know, we gotta make the other side look like they're the ones causing the problems. If that's truly what's happening, not you looking like the, you know, difficult parent.

Billie Tarascio (04:29):

Absolutely. And every parent has heard that and they do their best to, to take that and try to try to convert that into a strategy. And it doesn't always work. Can you explain, like, why?

Kylie Bigelow (04:44):

You mean, as in such that it doesn't work, if they're being aggressive? Or sometimes people think they're being the reasonable one, or they feel like they're,

Billie Tarascio (04:54):

They feel like they're doing everything right. And everything they can.

Kylie Bigelow (04:58):

And I think sometimes parents think that way, because whether it was how they used to do things, or, you know, they hear from their friends or their, their own parents are telling them to do a certain way. But in reality, it's not. And I think by having an attorney that can come in and tell you, Hey, that's not how you should actually be doing things. And sometimes it's really hard to hear that really, really hard, you know, because they think, Oh my gosh, he's doing something bad to my kid. I have to do this, this and this, but nobody believes me. What do I do? You know, we have to take a step back and look at the consequences. You know, if we call this authority or if we get this other person involved, what's actually gonna happen. So there there's so much that we kind of have to just bring them back and say, let's start fresh before, you know, they have all these assumptions or ideas as to what they need to do.

Billie Tarascio (05:49):

How do you go about formulating a strategy when you get a case that is in bad shape? Like, let's, let's just take a fact pattern. And let's let's throw in some angry teens and the therapeutic intervention. So tell me is a situation like that.

Kylie Bigelow (06:07):

So that's very common. Actually. You see that a lot. You have a teenager that gets in a fight with one parent, and then they run off to the other parent who typically wasn't always the involved parent because, 'Oh, Hey, you know, I get to leave mom's house and go to dad's and he'll let me do whatever I want.' And what often happens a lot of times is then there's that strain in relationship between, you know, the one parent and the child, the court gets involved. And sometimes they just throw these therapists on these types of cases and say, okay, let's let the therapist figure it out. And sometimes that's not actually the best way of going about it. Sometimes those, those therapists are great for certain circumstances. You know, say if a parent was not around a lot, and now they're coming back into the kid's life and they want to get to know them and they want to be what it's for reunification with the child. I think it works great in those situations where you just have an angry teenager. It doesn't, it doesn't, it's expensive and it drags on. And it typically doesn't really result in much in those situations. I think it's much better when the kid's just forced to go back to the parent because teenagers are teenagers. Just like, if they don't want to go to school, you make them go to school. They have to get over it.

Billie Tarascio (07:25):

Yeah. I think you're totally right. Sometimes involving these third-party providers can do much more harm than good. And it's hard to know when, and there's all these different types of providers. So let's, let's just talk about them. What is a parenting coordinator?

Kylie Bigelow (07:42):

So a parenting coordinator is it can really be anybody. It can be a psychologist, it can be an attorney. It could be a retired judge. And they have to be appointed based off an agreement between the parties. The judge cannot appoint them. They used to be able to, but typically now it has to be an agreement they're usually appointed for a year. And if the parents have joint legal decision making and they have minor disagreements, they can go to this person, pay the hourly fee, and that person can actually make a decision for them. That's binding. It's almost like an arbitration for small issues. And to be honest with you, I've heard completely mixed thoughts on that. Some people absolutely love it. They think it's great and helps them work out their minor issues. They have others feel that there's one parent constantly dragging them and it's very expensive.

Billie Tarascio (08:30):

Do you have, what is your philosophy on using a parenting coordinator?

Kylie Bigelow (08:35):

I think it depends on the client. Specifically, you know, if you have clients that are always going to be fighting, you know, they can't get along, they're going to end up in that place every week. It's going to be expensive. One. Parent's going to continue to drag them. They're better off getting one parent to have just final legal decision making in those situations. If the parents are fairly amicable and they typically can agree, but there's some bigger issues like a school choice or, you know, vaccinations or things like that, that maybe they need somebody to help provide input. I think it works okay. In those situations, what you just said there,

Billie Tarascio (09:08):

It is really important. Like if you have parents that are just hell bent on disagreeing and no matter what they're going to disagree, having a parenting coordinator won't help. But if you have parents who, who can, who can agree, but really need the assistance And a tie breaker, then the parenting coordinator can be useful.

Kylie Bigelow (09:27):

I, I think so typically those that can't get along the court just needs to pick someone.

Billie Tarascio (09:33):

And who do you like for parenting coordinators around the Valley?

Kylie Bigelow (09:39):

Um so I, I tend not to use them as often as a lot of people. You know, I've heard, like, for example, a lot of the retired judges, I think tend to be a little bit better just because they have more experience in the family law area. You know, Bethany Hicks has good reviews. Retired judge Carey Heights has good reviews. Sometimes some of the psychologists to like hide it, Quinlan. Some of those type of people I think are good, but I like if you're going to do that, getting a retired judge, just because it's somebody that knows the law and has a little bit more experience and can provide input to the parents as to here's, what's potentially going to happen. If this issue does go to court.

Billie Tarascio (10:19):

So you like keeping the providers informed on the law, as opposed to just providing psychological or therapeutic Intervention.

Kylie Bigelow (10:31):

To some extent, it depends on what kind of provider we're talking about. If we're dealing with a parenting coordinator, who's actually making decisions. And a lot of times they're making legal decision-making decisions, not parenting time. So I think that that person needs to know what the law is in those situations.

Billie Tarascio (10:48):

Okay. Let's talk about a psych eval. This is another thing that comes up in family court where people want to have the other person evaluated or judge decides to have someone evaluated. What do you think about the use of psyche evals. In family court.

Kylie Bigelow (11:02):

So psyche evals can be beneficial to the extent that you find out what somebody has potentially, if they do have some sort of like a mental diagnosis, however, it doesn't give you any recommendations though. So you, you get this piece of paper and it says, okay, this person is diagnosed with a form of bipolar disorder, but it doesn't tell you what they should do, where they should go if either no, there's any recommendations based off parenting. And they're, they're not cheap to get either. So it really only gives you that very basic information that you, I mean, you can use in court, but it's not going to necessarily fix the problem or get you recommendations based off that problem. It just says this person has this particular issue, right. A little bit lenient on those. I think sometimes you can step it up and do like a limited scope evaluation where the psychological evaluations included in that, but that person can also dive in a little bit deeper. They can't give full on recommendations, but they can at least look and see, you know, what steps that parent could potentially take or look at the other issues.

Billie Tarascio (12:12):

Okay. So let's talk about that. So a family, a limited family assessment, or a comprehensive family assessment, those are two things you hear about in family court as well. Do those include psyche evals?

Kylie Bigelow (12:24):

You can ask for those to be included. So if one of the questions of the limited scope assessment is, you know, evaluating mother and father's mental health that can be included as part of that. Now, the difference though is with the limited scope you, that provider can't actually give recommendations for parenting time or legal decision making to the court comprehensive, they can.

Billie Tarascio (12:48):

Okay. Is that the only difference between a limited and a comprehensive evaluation?

Kylie Bigelow (12:53):

No. So a limited is much, much more narrowed. That is only specific questions that you're asking the provider to look at. For example, like I said before, what is, you know, some concerns with mom and dad's mental health, or, you know, looking at the relationship between mom and the child and whether or not there's alienation going on. It's very, very specific questions. And it's limited only to those where comprehensive family evaluation looks at everything. It's usually those reports are upwards of a hundreds of pages and they have collaterals where they talk to third parties and witnesses. The children are interviewed, and it's an ongoing process that can take six months to a year, depending on the issues at hand. And they're able to give full recommendations based off of everything that they know.

Billie Tarascio (13:42):

When do you think a comprehensive family assessment is warranted?

Kylie Bigelow (13:49):

First off? I'll say they're very expensive, very, very expensive. Usually it starts upwards of $10,000 on up. So I think the parents first need to decide whether or not it's worth spending the money on that. I think in situations where there's a long history of issues where, you know, it's not just an immediate issue between a mom and, you know, a child got into a fight that that's not where it's going to be beneficial, you know, it's gotta be where there's been, whether it's a marriage or something like that. And they're significant alcohol abuse and maybe there's criminal issues and there's mental health issues as well. I mean, you have to have a lot of moving parts and usually, you know, are there issues on both sides that parents, you know, are making allegations against, but it should be a pretty complicated case. And like I said, these things should be ongoing for a period of time. This shouldn't just be a, you know, Oh, he did this one time. We're going to pay all this money for that. Not worth it.

Billie Tarascio (14:54):

So up until today, we had a family court behavioral health roster, or maybe up until last week. And I thought, and I think most attorneys thought in order to get a provider appointed in a case they needed to be on the roster, but it turns out I was completely wrong.

Kylie Bigelow (15:18):

Yeah, no, that's correct. I, I used to think the same thing too, because that's what everybody always went to, was the roster, including the judges that seemed like majority of the time was let's look and see who's available on the roster. And that's where they always gave names. But apparently you were able to pick providers that were not on the roster. And now the order's very clear that they don't even have a roster anymore. So really that does open a window to a lot of providers that may be, you know, cheaper or actually more skilled in this area. And they just didn't happen to be on this family court roster. So I know one of the problems was the roster was getting smaller and smaller and smaller I've noticed. And it used to be the, you know, there were hundreds of people on there and, you know, I think last time I looked, there's maybe 30 people. And so you felt very limited in your choices and sometimes you had clients coming to you that had already gone through five or 10 of those people for different related issues. And so I think that this is going to open up a whole new opportunity for some really qualified people that were on there.

Billie Tarascio (16:23):

I agree. It's pretty exciting. I think when we were looking at who to recommend for psyche Val's or for comprehensive of family assessments, there were only three or four people you could choose from and they do things a lot differently, right?

Kylie Bigelow (16:40):

Oh yeah. Every provider's got a different way of doing things and you know, some of them are a little more slow, you know, and they'll take more time. Others are quick, some are really aggressive. Some are kind of laid back. Let's see how things go type of providers. So they're, they're all very, very different in their methods. They all get the same order from the court of how they're supposed to do the process. But I can tell you that none of them are the same. They all do things however they want.

Billie Tarascio (17:09):

So let's talk about who are some of the major providers that you have worked with a lot?

Kylie Bigelow (17:15):

I've worked with Dr. Weinstock quite a bit All the time.

Billie Tarascio (17:19):

He is probably, I think the most well-known the, the most possibly well-respected of the behavioral health providers. Tell me about your experience with him because people have a lot to say about Dr. Weinstock.

Kylie Bigelow (17:39):

I think a lot of people initially choose him because he is so well known. I mean, he has this reputation, you know, if you ask any of the judges, they know who he is, which sometimes can be super beneficial for your case, but he does take a little longer in the process. I would say for people you know, he's not as aggressive as some other people, so it just depends on what you need out of him. I mean his background and everything is, you know, far superior to some other people, but it doesn't necessarily mean he's going to be the right person for your case. When you

Billie Tarascio (18:14):

Say he's not as aggressive, how do you mean?

Kylie Bigelow (18:17):

He likes to take things slow, especially when we're looking at reunification between a parent and child, he tends to really rely on other providers that the child is seeing and really take into account how the child feels more than how the parents feel typically. Whereas some other providers I've worked with, they don't really care how the child feels. Depending on the circumstance, they tell them, you know, that's your parent, you need to get over it and move on. So it just depends on what you, you know, you want out of your, your case. Do you want that slow, you know, making sure the child's emotionally ready, or do you feel that, you know, your, your kids just being a brat and someone needs to tell them that they need to move forward?

Billie Tarascio (19:01):

I think this is so important because who you choose to be a you know, a third-party expert or involved in your case will have so much influence over the way your case goes and they all see the world differently. So who's another provider that you've worked with that is pretty well-known.

Kylie Bigelow (19:20):

I've worked with Dr. Decarlo who actually worked under Weinstock Weinstock was his mentor and very different in my opinion, way of doing things than Weinstock does. I'd say he's kind of more of the in-between, you know, he, he takes it slow. He does, you know, listen to the kids' opinions and feelings, but at the same time he recognizes, you know, there's parents involved and sometimes the kid just needs to be pushed. So he, he has a, I think, a good way of connecting with both the kids and the Parents.

Billie Tarascio (19:53):

And so Dr. Weinstock is both a lawyer. He has a JD and a psychologist, correct? Correct. Is that true for Dr. Decarlo as well?

Kylie Bigelow (20:03):

I do not believe so. I think he only is, has the psychologist.

Billie Tarascio (20:07):

Okay. All right. And so, in which type of case would you want to use

Kylie Bigelow (20:10):

Him? I think in a, not necessarily a super high conflict case but in one, you know, where parent and a child are just struggling to get along, you know, I wouldn't attribute just a one incident, but maybe they're just not getting along. Or I think, you know, he could be good in a situation where say, you know, dad was overseas for a long time and now comes back and wants to get back in. I think in those types of situations, words, you know, not super, super complicated issues, but just to get them reestablished.

Billie Tarascio (20:44):

So okay. All right. And who, who's another provider that you have worked With?

Kylie Bigelow (20:49):

Um so another one is Dr. Bewalda, and she's going to be on the far other side and she's going to be much more aggressive. So she's kind of a no nonsense, you know, I don't really care what the excuses that's your parent let's figure this out and move forward. So she's good in those situations where say a mom and a kid have a fight and, you know, prior to that, they were perfectly fine. You know, she'll push that kids will be back with that parent. So a very, very different approach than the other two.

Billie Tarascio (21:23):

Okay. So what does it take for a Judge to say that a parent should have no parenting time?

Kylie Bigelow (21:31):

Um to be honest, that's almost impossible. Especially nowadays, now I have seen it happen, but I tell clients, you know, when they come to me and they say, I don't want him to have parenting time, or I don't want her to have any parenting time. It's, it's a pretty unrealistic I mean, there has to be some pretty significant ongoing issues, you know, serious abuse or serious, you know, substance problems where they're not able to actually have that parenting time with the child. Because at a minimum, typically the court will always give them supervised parenting time. It might be very limited, but they typically will do that because they want them to have a relationship. If they weren't going to give any parenting time, then terminations of parental rights would be a lot more common, which is very hard to get, even in those situations. I mean, I've had dads that were in ice custody and the court was reluctant initially to try and terminate that women's rights.

Billie Tarascio (22:33):

So it's, you're much better off usually asking for supervision if you have concerns about safety, as opposed to asking for no time.

Kylie Bigelow (22:44):

Yeah. And I mean, you know, there's always going to be those examples where, you know, father severely abused a child or something like that. The court's not going to give them supervised parenting time immediately. They may have them do some therapy and they may be dealing with some criminal charges anyways, that's going to limit their parenting time. Uyou know, or I've seen where it's supervised, but, you know, if the parent's testing positive for say, you know, meth or cocaine or something along those lines that they might need to have a clean test for a week or two before they can have those supervised visits.

Billie Tarascio (23:17):

Okay. let's talk about alienation and therapeutic intervention. I think these are some of the hardest cases and some of the most common dynamics that we see in family court. So can you explain, like, what is alienation?

Kylie Bigelow (23:40):

So it's, you'd be surprised. It's very, very common and you almost hear this out of every client that I have whether or not it applies to their case is another story, but people always think that the other parent's alienating. And typically what that means is that a parent is one, you know, filling that child's head with all sorts of negative things about the other parent, you know, they could be telling them that the other parent's a drug abuser or that, you know, they want to hurt them, or, I mean, and those are dealing with pretty extreme situations. But you know, they could withhold the child from the parents. A lot of times the alienating parent will make the child feel guilty. You know, Oh your dad, you know, didn't give me child support this month. I don't have money to feed you. I'm so sorry. Or, you know, we can't do this because your dad won't let us do this. Or, or vice versa. I hear it from both moms and dads. But they, they really confuse the child so much to the extent that the child doesn't really want to spend time with that other parent anymore because they think that parent's a bad person. And a lot of times parents think that the other parent is doing it, which isn't always the case. But it does come up.

Billie Tarascio (24:59):

So it's some extreme emotional manipulation.

Kylie Bigelow (25:03):

Absolutely. A hundred percent. That's exactly what it is. And sometimes I don't think parents even realize that they're actually doing it. You know, they're just so frustrated at the other parent and a lot of those situations. And they just think that, you know, by having the kid on their side or whatever, it makes them feel better because they don't want their kid going to the other parent and loving on them and stuff.

Billie Tarascio (25:26):

I think if you are, if you hate your ex and you can't think of a single good thing to say about them as a parent, you may be in danger of being this alienated parent, because that is, that is a clue. And he, and you really should ask yourself, do you have anything positive to say about this person as a parent? And if you don't then that's how they really feel Kylie. And so how do you convince people that feel that way? And that believe that that they're, that they're doing damage.

Kylie Bigelow (26:01):

I think to kind of take them out of that situation. And it's, it's hard. It's, it's really, really hard. I think they really have to realize what they're doing, you know, and ask them that question, you know, do you feel that the S you know, how do you think this makes your kid feel, you know, ask them those questions so that they understand that, Oh, maybe this is making it, you know, really bad. You know, maybe this is making my kid feel a certain way. You know, sometimes with clients, you know, I will have them talk about positives that they're ex you know, as much as they hate them, you know, tell me something good about them. If we gotta get them out of that mindset so that they realize that they're, I mean, most of the time these parents didn't have good loving relationships with each other.

Kylie Bigelow (26:45):

And so, you know, getting them to think about some of those positives situation that they've had in the past sometimes helps too. But I mean, the main thing is telling them, if you continue this behavior, you could lose your kid. I mean, not lose them permanently, but you know, there's situations where the court will pull that child out of that parent's home and put them with the other parent unless they stop. I mean, I have to sometimes tell clients specifically, you know, in emails, you know, you can't say this, don't do this, don't text them this, you know, don't talk to your kid about anything, because it will come out one way or another.

Billie Tarascio (27:18):

So if you've got a situation, you know, one parent is relentless in, in bad mouthing another parent that is a bad situation. Ualienation is, is where the child now rejects the parent. What is it that happens? Like, how does, how does it, how does a family go from, you know, mom, bad mouths dad, to the child now hates dad?

Kylie Bigelow (27:50):

Typically, you know, something there there's usually a situation that makes that change happen. A lot of times, it's, you know, the other parent gets remarried. I see that a lot, or, you know, say the other parents stops paying their child support, or, you know, it's, it's usually or say all of a sudden the other parent's making a lot of money and has this really nice house. It tends to be out of, I noticed jealousy or spite that's typically when something triggers it, where then they start feeding these thoughts to the child. It's they get so built up in themselves, you know, where they just talk poorly about him or whatever, but then they start telling the kid it too, and then the kid starts to feed off of it. And then it just, it's just gradual.

Billie Tarascio (28:35):

One of the weird things about alienation is a child who is truly alienated, will not just reject the parent, but also extended family members and anyone who's connected to that parent. And so for me, that's a real sign that like, you've, you've crossed over into a very dangerous place. We've heard, we've all heard how much judges hate the term alienation. How do you handle, let's say you represent a parent whose child rejects them, rejects their whole family, says, they're afraid. There's no legitimate reason for this fear. What can you do?

Kylie Bigelow (29:12):

I think that's when you need the right provider to be On that case that can actually pull that out and picking up, Right. Provider is really, really important in those situations, depending on what you have going on. Because if you have some providers, like I said, they'll just kind of take it slow and just try to reunify where you have others that are much more aggressive and I'll get right to the point right away. So I think not delaying, it helps to, you know, the longer that you wait to, to do something about it, the worse it's going to be. So you need somebody to get in there and take care of it right away. Because I mean, you, you go in front of the judge, you meet them for what, a few hours, and you present some evidence. And he says, Oh, well, this happened. And mom says, this happened. And unless you have somebody that's specialized, that can come in and say, this is what's actually going on, it's just left up to the judge to decide. And then it just depends on what judge you have, where some really fall into believing the alienation and others think it's you know, completely fake and they don't think it's necessary. You know, they just say, okay, kid's not happy with that parent. Oh, well, they'll stay with the other one. So, I mean, it happens.

Billie Tarascio (30:24):

I think one of the things you just said is so important It gets worse the older the kids get and gets worse the longer it goes on. And I see a lot of the times a laid back parent who maybe saw this coming, but they were just like, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. I'm just not going to, non-confrontational laid back parent can find themselves completely rejected.

Kylie Bigelow (30:51):

Oh yeah, absolutely. If you paid, I mean, it's, it's so much more difficult to get back.

Billie Tarascio (30:57):

So at what point, if you think you're being, if you think the other person is talking about you is putting things in your, in your kid's ears. Like at what point do you take action?

Kylie Bigelow (31:08):

I think as soon as you find out that it's ongoing, not necessarily taking core action, but maybe getting the child into their own therapist so that they have some support system where they can feed these things to that person and that person can help them, you know, decipher what's really true. And what, and how to, you know, react to those situations. I think that helps. Now, if it's getting to the point though, where now the child is starting to, you know, you're, you're seeing that rejection a little bit. Maybe they're still coming over, but they're not wanting to, you know, stay or they're locking themselves in a room or things like that. That may be the point where you might have to file something and start to get the parenting time modified. You may not end up with a modification, but at least these issues will come out. And a lot of times then you'll see that other parent noticing that poor behavior that they're doing and they may stop.

Billie Tarascio (31:58):

Yeah. You have to be really aggressive to intervene in the cycle. And the cycle is real predictable. We see the cycle all the time and you can intervene, but it's not easy. And if you wait until the point where your child rejects you, how effective is therapeutic intervention?

Kylie Bigelow (32:17):

Again, it depends, depends on the situation, how long the damage has been ongoing for. I mean, if it's been five years, you know, it may work, but don't count on it. It depends on the kid's age too. You know, if your kid's almost 18, don't count on it. You know, typically I see more success, those kinds of preteen age kids, you know, where they're not fully opinionated and they, you know, can still come around. It works better in those situations. And again, it depends on what provider you pick too, and you know, how aggressive you are. And with that, you know, if you kind of just wait for them to reach out, wait for them to schedule and kind of just let them take their time. Or if, you know, the other parent keeps delaying, you're not going to get anywhere. I mean, it has to be ongoing, frequent, you know, starting right away. Otherwise it's not going to work.

Billie Tarascio (33:11):

Talk to me about the personality type of, and the parent child relationship dynamics that are most problematic or most difficult to repair.

Kylie Bigelow (33:24):

I think when there's long-term damage especially if a parent has made another child feel that they were say sexually abused by their other parent or, or something like that, those ones are really, really hard to fix. Just because there's been so much damage done to the child you know, if it's a one-time fight, those you typically can fix you know, or if it's a parent that abandoned the child for awhile, you know, say they were around and then they went and got a new family and now they want to come back. The kid's going to be angry. It just, it depends on those, but typically, you know, I'll see when it's serious, serious allegations and the kids bought into those allegations, those ones are really hard to fix.

Billie Tarascio (34:13):

I'm glad you brought that up. And I want to give some examples because, you know, you might think to yourself, well, how can anyone, if someone's been sexually abused, then of course they shouldn't be around parents. But I worked on a case where dad accused mom of sexually abusing the kids. And there was one example, it was one kid. And it was where mom demonstrated how to properly clean her private areas. They were in the sheriff together. And mom was like, this is how you have to clean your privates and cleaned her privates in front of the child who was in the shower child was maybe five, six years old. I don't think that sexual abuse was it, was it the best idea and in a high conflict divorce? No, but that event backfired and caused real fear and real belief in the children that mom was, was somehow dangerous. Another event that, that these children were afraid of was that one time mom locked the door and said they were, they should go outside and eat their popsicles outside. And they were afraid to go see mom because mom had locked them out of the house and abused them. And so like, that was just objectively wrong. It was just objectively false, but these children didn't believe it.

Kylie Bigelow (35:31):

And that sometimes happens when they're too young to understand. I mean, it's different when you're dealing with the kids, it's difficult. Cause they're just stubborn and they're teenagers and hormonal and all of that. But when they're young, they don't know what's actually right and wrong and what's happening. So when they have a parent constantly telling them, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. Then that's what they think because they don't understand things. They don't know.

Billie Tarascio (35:57):

Yeah. With little kids, it's hard because parents can essentially implant memories.

Kylie Bigelow (36:03):

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Kylie Bigelow (36:07):

You don't remember anything from a certain age. And if, you know, a parent said, Oh, this happened to you at this age then. Okay. Well, because you don't have any other memories.

Billie Tarascio (36:16):

With teenagers. One of the, one of the things that I see is if you get into a power struggle with a teen and you're, you're a very authoritarian parent and, and you've got a child who's extremely disrespectful. So the child's coming over and they're, they're all amped up and entitled and disrespectful and pushing all your buttons. And you're like, Oh, I'm the parent who will listen to me that dynamic. I don't know how that gets fixed. Have you ever seen that get fixed?

Kylie Bigelow (36:46):

I think in those situations, some therapy has worked. You know, typically that parent has to recognize that, you know, they can't act like that, especially today. I mean, maybe like our parents, they could do it and get away with it back then. And it was no big deal. You think you've respected your parent, you went with it. But today now, I mean, as a parent, you have to be careful. You, you really do. And you know, it can be fixed, but a lot of times, those teenagers want to see, you know, a big change from that other parent and they want the apologies and they, you know, they want that feeling from them. You know, that, they're sorry for how they treated them, which, you know, sometimes sucks. Cause you're just disciplining your kid, but sometimes you just kind of have to take it and suck it up and say, okay, you know, it's not going to happen again. I apologize. You know, so that they can move forward.

Billie Tarascio (37:41):

It's pretty incredible. I mean, the things we're asking parents to do, you're exactly right. The things that you could do, if you were married, you can't do when you're divorced. Things you could do, you know, 20, 30 years ago, you know, the dynamic that could exist can't exist in, in a relationship where the other parent is just looking to sabotage you. So you might be in a chess game with your kid. \.

Kylie Bigelow (38:11):

Oh yeah. Yeah. You have to be very, very careful what you do. Especially if when you, you do get a divorce, if it wasn't amicable and you know, it was contentious and you guys left on horrible terms, you have to just always expect that the other parent, I mean, it's unfortunate. It has to be that way, but that they're always going to be out there to possibly get you.

Billie Tarascio (38:34):

Wow. I don't know how you do these cases all the time.

Kylie Bigelow (38:40):

They're eventful and every case is different. But you know, when I do see those circumstances where the outcomes are good and you see that child reunified with that parent, or you see in the end of the parents are actually getting along. That's, that's the good part of it.

Billie Tarascio (38:54):

And you see that happen where parents go from hating each other's guts to getting along?

Kylie Bigelow (38:59):

Sometimes, you know, if there's been good therapy and you know, if they see the damage that's caused the child, sometimes it's rare, but it does happen.

Billie Tarascio (39:09):

Do you, do, do you find that most of your cases are initial divorces or they are post to create issues, which means they're after the initial divorce or the initial custody?

Kylie Bigelow (39:19):

Typically post decree, it seems like that.

Billie Tarascio (39:22):

And tell me why you think that is. I think,

Kylie Bigelow (39:27):

I think that at the time that they either got a divorce or they entered into their initial custody agreements, that they were on good terms. And that's kind of what I was talking about before. Usually some event triggers and things just go downhill from there. Like I said, whether there's a remarriage or there's a new girlfriend in the picture, or, you know, the other parents making more money now, or there's child support issues, typically there's some kind of event that that takes place or, you know, the kid's gotten older. And so things may change in their life to which changes, you know, from when they had their degree.

Billie Tarascio (39:59):

So when is it, when should a parent consider filing some sort of post to create action? And when is it too early?

Kylie Bigelow (40:08):

You have to have a change in circumstances. The court won't hear a modification case unless there's been a change in circumstances. So you can't just go to court and file and say, Oh, I think mom's being, you know, mean and bad mouthing me. That's not going to be enough. You have to show, okay. You know, now the kid, you know, their grades are starting to suffer, you know, possibly they're having, you know, suicidal ideations, you know, a mom's withholding the child or dad's withholding the child. There has to be some pretty big changes in circumstances. I feel that the court's gotten a lot more strict on this where you can't just file. You know, I mean sometimes if there's changes in, you know, work schedule or health needs or things like that, the listen to those, but you know, if you just want to change parenting time, there's gotta be something going on.

Billie Tarascio (40:55):

And if you think that you might be, you know, you're in a high conflict situation and you think you might be being alienated, what, what can a parent do to proactively get in front of that? I think I would

Billie Tarascio (41:06):

First start to confront the other parent, you know, have it in writing, let them know this is what's going on. This is what I'm seeing. And like I said, too, I think getting a child into therapy immediately too helps a lot because one, they may be disclosing some stuff to the therapist so that, you know, if you do go to court, you'll have that information. But I think that they need to confront the other parent right away, let them know that their concerns in writing.

Billie Tarascio (41:31):

I think that's brilliant. And I also think like if you're dealing with teens, I have teens. Like just, doubling down on the relationship, not allowing there to be distanced, like not pushing through any power struggles and really sitting that kiddo down and making that kiddo explain what is the real issue. I'm not going to yell and scream at you. What's going on? Can go really far.

Kylie Bigelow (42:00):

Yeah. I think not giving into it. You know, if they say, Oh, I don't want to come over on his day at dad's house tonight or whatever, you know, don't let them make them come over for their parenting time.

Billie Tarascio (42:10):

I totally agree with you, which is hard because parents want to be flexible and they want to be accommodating. But at the same time you know, it's not, I think every once in a while being flexible is not a problem. If there's a pattern that is, that is eviscerating your parenting time, you got to come up with something else and maybe it means you and the kiddo come up with a plan for him over to see their friends or get to do the same things they would like to do at the other parent's house. But you can't just let your kids, you can't, you have to fight through that relationship.

Kylie Bigelow (42:46):

Yeah. I think a lot of parents in these situations, they feel like they want to be their kid's friend a little bit. And so they don't want to upset them. They don't want to push them more, but you have to, I mean, you're still their parent. You make them come over, you make them do you know, typically that's how you get them back.

Billie Tarascio (43:02):

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, those are great tips. We are almost out of time, but are there any final thoughts or, or top tips that you would give parents that are in high conflict situations?

Kylie Bigelow (43:16):

I think the biggest tip is don't wait, you know, start addressing the issue right away. Don't let it fester for a year or two years, because once you get to that 0.1, you know, you're going to be spending a lot more in fees, going to court and getting higher, you know, types of providers involved and, you know, really start working on whatever the issue is immediately. Don't wait on it. I'd say that that's number one, you know, confront the other parent about it, have those discussions with them, as you indicated, sit down with the kid and you know, don't bring up adult things, but you know, see what's going on with them. Why are they feeling this way? You know, just really take action. Just don't wait, don't wait. Don't get advice from your friends or things like that. Either don't run to the courthouse and file something, you know, the day that the person's mad at you or you feel your kid's upset with you because then you're, nothing's going to come out of that, you know, just really tried to figure out what is that issue.

Billie Tarascio (44:14):

Yeah. Have a strategy. Don't go into the chess game and just decide I'm going to play the pawn now and then maybe the rook, like how's strategy and Kylie, right?

Kylie Bigelow (44:26):

Absolutely. That's what I'm here for.

Billie tarascio (44:28):

Well, thank you so much. I really, really enjoyed talk today and we'll talk soon then.

Billie Tarascio (44:34):

You thanks so much for listening to the Modern Divorce podcast. Remember anything you've heard today or anything you read online is not the replacement for actual consultation with an attorney and does not create an attorney client relationship. Even if you called in and we spoke to you, you were anonymous and we don't have her details and you have not become a client of modern law. However, we would love to speak with you, or you should seek out the advice of legal counsel or counseling or any other expert interview. And if you have an idea for a show topic, or you need to speak with an attorney in Arizona, you can reach me at info@mymodernlaw.com.