Where you divorce can make a big difference. In this podcast, family law attorneys Billie Tarascio and Russell Knight break down the concerns for divorcing in different jurisdictions and why that's important.
For instance, certain states may split property differently or have more beneficial child custody laws for your particular situation. There are also rules for when and where you can take your child out of state - or out of the country - in the process of a divorce.
This is a must-listen episode for anyone starting a divorce who has connections in more than one state or area!
You can find Russell on his website at rdklegal.com and Billie at mymodernlaw.com.
Where you divorce can make a big difference. In this podcast, family law attorneys Billie Tarascio and Russell Knight break down the concerns for divorcing in different jurisdictions and why that's important.
For instance, certain states may split property differently or have more beneficial child custody laws for your particular situation. There are also rules for when and where you can take your child out of state - or out of the country - in the process of a divorce.
This is a must-listen episode for anyone starting a divorce who has connections in more than one state or area!
You can find Russell on his website at rdklegal.com and Billie at mymodernlaw.com.
Billie Tarascio (00:31):
Hi, there it's Billie Tarascio from the modern divorce podcast. And I am today joined by fellow attorney Russell Knight. We have a fantastic episode today about where to file jurisdictional issues. They're not easy, but they affect us every single day. How are you doing today, Russell?
Russell Knight (00:48):
I'm good. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, absolutely.
Billie Tarascio (00:51):
So before we dive into the wonderful world of jurisdiction, tell us a little bit about you and your practice.
Russell Knight (00:59):
I am a family law divorce attorney based out of Chicago, Illinois, and Naples, Florida. I have an office in each location and I used to go back and forth a lot, but now I've just been in Naples through the whole pandemic and thanks to the wonders of Zoom. I'm able to maintain and thrive in my other practice in Chicago without stepping foot in Illinois. And we'll see how long that lasts.
Billie Tarascio (01:25):
Good for you. I think if I was choosing between Florida and Illinois, I would also choose Florida for lots of reasons during the pandemic. How's how's life been down there for you?
Russell Knight (01:36):
It's pretty good. It's the weather's perfect. People don't wear masks, but you just stay away from them.
Billie Tarascio (01:43):
Yeah. Arizona is largely the same way. Not super conservative when it comes to the COVID the COVID practices, we can still eat in restaurants. You know, people are mostly masked up, but life hasn't been quite as as, as changed or affected as the, as they have been in other States. Yes. So tell me about your firm. How are you managing both?
Russell Knight (02:12):
Well it's I now have staff in both Chicago and Naples. Everyone has either was amazing at the beginning or they learn to thrive working on their own from home. I do not make people go into the office. I think that it is inappropriate to do that. So I don't. But people are calling me and people are hiring me and they don't seem to have a problem that I have never met them. And then I'll meet them on our zoom call for the prove up if it's an agreed divorce for the first time. So I think it's gone smoothly for everyone involved.
Billie Tarascio (02:50):
Fantastic. So there are a lot of people who come to Arizona, the Phoenix area, where I'm at from Illinois from and jurisdiction comes up all the time.
Russell Knight (03:04):
Yes. we have the same thing where I'm on the West coast of Florida, where Chicago and other Midwesterners, often transplants and people, I say, people go to Florida, they're looking for a change and sometimes they get the change they weren't expecting. So yeah, we have to deal with issues all the time because there'll be conflicting. There'll be dueling petitions motions to dismiss. There's all sorts of interesting States where it's almost impossible to get a divorce in one state. If you don't, both people don't live in them like Ohio shouldn't get into. But then there's other issues where in Florida is very jealous of its residents where it's difficult to establish residency here. You have to have been here for six months out of the whole year. And they're very strict about it because we have no income tax. So the, we don't like to let people take advantage of it that can't. But we deal with a lot of jurisdictional issues because people are always moving in and out of the state.
Billie Tarascio (04:05):
Absolutely. So in Florida, you cannot file for divorce unless you establish residency,
Russell Knight (04:12):
Someone has to have residency. So if your ex is out of the state, you have to prove that you are here for six months, usually by a driver's license. But there's also an additional at the station that you actually have been here to establish your residency and they don't, they don't just take your word for it. They literally make it. You have to mail in a copy of your driver's license to prove it.
Billie Tarascio (04:34):
Yeah. In Arizona, you only have to have lived in the state for 90 days. One person has to be in the state for 90 days in order to file the divorce. And then if we don't meet that requirement, what we might often do is file for legal separation, which doesn't have any sort of residency requirement wait our 90 days and then convert.
Russell Knight (04:55):
Okay. Illinois has a 90 day requirement too, but it's not really observed. And the 90 day requirement can be converted into 90 days before the divorce is finally entered. So you could walk into Illinois and say, I want a divorce, wait 90 days - and sure t hey could file a motion to dismiss your petition for dissolution of marriage. But by the time they get got heard, you would have already achieved the 90 day requirement.
Billie Tarascio (05:21):
Wow. So what happens if someone files for divorce in Florida and someone files for divorce in Illinois, same couple,
Russell Knight (05:31):
Both parties will refile respective motions to dismiss in each jurisdiction, laying out why it's inappropriate. Usually the number one reason is long-arm statute. It's a concept, a long-arm jurisdiction. Rather it's a concept that says that you shouldn't be allowed to be sued in a state that you're not a resident in, unless you have some sort of minimal contacts with that state. And like, we all read this big, long case about it called international shoe in law school. But it's pretty simple. If you're not, there's usually a, each state will have a list of things that qualify as establishing a contact with the state. Usually having lived there, having a business, they're doing some kind of business doing anything there conceiving a child there who keeps track of that. And then if you meet those requirements, you can be sued in that state. And the idea is that otherwise it is such an enormous hassle. It would be in violation of your constitutional due process rights to have to travel to that state, to defend yourself. But in this age of zoom it's a good question. Whether at due process right it definitely still exists, but whether being in another state, is an incumbrance on your due process rights right now, we're talking across a continent and our ancestors probably would never cross it if they had a stagecoach back when the constitution was written. So that being said that's, the law still stands. And there's usually case law local, locally that establishes that even the minimal contacts, usually isn't really the minimal contacts. So in those cases y ou can still get a divorce cause you can do a bifurcated divorce because you have In Rem jurisdiction,
Russell Knight (07:22):
Which means In Rem is Latin means Of The Thing. And the thing is the marriage. And so you can get the divorce. You can usually have custody through another statute because the kids will live there. You can have that established, but child support, alimony and division of assets, marital assets, none of those can get dealt with unless there's personal jurisdiction, which means that that person does have a contact in the other state. So that is usually the issue of why a case will get dismissed in Illinois or Florida, because there's not sufficient contacts, but if there are sufficient contacts, then it's my understanding that the courts have to figure out either who filed first or what is the preferred venue for handling the case, which then again, turns on what does it matter for preferred venue? Because if the assets are all in one state, what is the hindrance on inspecting or valuing the assets?
Russell Knight (08:23):
Just because you live in another state in this modern age, more likely than not, it will turn on where the children live. Because it, all the States have entered into a binding compact called the UCC JEA where all the acronyms kind of escapes me what it stands for, but universal child jurisdiction enforcement act. And if your child's been in the state for six months, that will be the state within which you must prosecute or defend a child custody or child or parents. Objection. So that's usually how jurisdictional issues go from a thousand feet up.
Billie Tarascio (09:07):
All right, let's break these down because you just talked about a ton of different contexts. The first thing we were talking about was subject matters, subject matter jurisdiction, which state gets to hear the subject of the issue of divorce. Yes. And that's where we were talking about our residency requirements. And each state gets to come up with their own requirement for what constitutes residency to give them the subject matter jurisdiction. Is that right? Yes. The second issue is personal jurisdiction. Can we make the person show up for the action? So my first question to you is can let's say we have a divorce without any children involved because as, as you were already talking about there's different rules for jurisdiction over property jurisdiction, over children, jurisdiction over the divorce jurisdiction over the actual people. So right now, if let's say Arizona has jurisdiction over the divorce subject matter jurisdiction, because let's say wife has lived here for 90 days, but husband has never been to Arizona. Can I file for divorce in Arizona and serve husband in Florida and make him show up? Or does he have a valid defense? Because he's never been to Arizona.
Russell Knight (10:32):
He's very likely to have a valid defense because he's never been to Arizona. And because he has a, does not have minimal contacts in that situation. The only exception to it is if you can trick him to coming into Arizona and then you give the papers to him, then you automatically establish that he has minimal contacts. So if they have a reason to reconnect, that might be something they choose to do. That's the only way they'll get personal jurisdiction. If in fact they have no context whatsoever, but she can still get her divorce. She just might have to follow up in another state. But that being said almost what would be the point of it because you would file the other divorce in Florida, I guess, cause he lives there and then proceed under those rules. But I'm telling you, you can't do that. For example, it contested divorce in Ohio to the best of my understanding. Cause this happens a lot. You have to have both people living there if it's contested for Ohio to have jurisdiction. So if one person does not live in Ohio and the issues are not agreed, the case cannot proceed. And so I've had to bifurcate a divorce here in Florida and then kick it up to so that it can be registered and then hopefully finalize in Ohio. I just did that a couple of weeks ago. I don't know if it's going to work.
Billie Tarascio (12:02):
Wow. So it makes sense for people who have multi-jurisdictional issues. If you've got one spouse living in one state and another spouse in another state, it makes sense if there's a lot of money at stake to talk to lawyers in different States to find out where is it more favorable for you to get divorced?
Russell Knight (12:20):
Absolutely. And things are very different in different States in Illinois. Everything's based on a formula for alimony 33% minus 22, 5% of the respective incomes in Florida, Florida, not at all. It's the, the capacity of the alimony payor versus the needs of the alimony payee and whether that person has capacity to pay the needs which is not a mathematical test. It's more like a story problem. So depending on the person, it could be a big windfall to use the guidelines or not or not. But, and also in Illinois, there is no requirement of a 50 50 split it's equitable division, which can be 70 30. If a judge thinks is fair, but in Florida it has to be 50 50, unless the judge makes specific written findings, which is an invitation for an appeal of why it wasn't 50 50.
Billie Tarascio (13:18):
Okay. So the more money that you've got going on, the bigger the issues are like, the more likely it is that you should talk to lawyers in both States and do some analysis about where you should get divorced. It is, we know for sure it matters for alimony. What, what other reasons might it matter where you get divorced
Russell Knight (13:40):
For alimony, for certain, for division of assets, depending on what the standard is in the state, it's not always 50 50. The other issues are if the children are bouncing around or the children usually determine it and we can talk about later how UCCJ determines the jurisdiction of the kids, but different States usually different counties in different States treat the idea of shared parentage differently. Cook County, Illinois is not a presumption of a 50 50 split of parents. It is an every other weekend is usually the standard for the non-primary parents. Call your County, Florida. You half the time. You have to be an ax murderer not to get a 50, 50
Billie Tarascio (14:25):
Interesting. Arizona's the same way. There's a strong presumption for equal parenting time. Do you think that more conservative States are more pro 50, 50 parenting time?
Russell Knight (14:43):
I absolutely think that.
Billie Tarascio (14:44):
Okay. Okay. And now you practice in two States that treat it very differently in your opinion, what's the better
Russell Knight (14:53):
I worry about turning, looking like one of those fathers rights advocates. I know their heart's in the right place, but they just did a very unflattering strategy and getting their point across. I think that the presumption of 50 50 is probably a great place to start. Whereas there is essentially no presumption in Illinois, which means that a father who was already considered fit by the statute has to work his way up from nothing which ends up wasting a massive amount of money and court time to get close to 50 50 when it makes more sense to me that if you had 50, 50 as the presumption, and then it's not going to take nearly as much effort to get dad down to the 25% that maybe he deserves because he simply doesn't have the capacity to watch the children 50 50. So that those are my thoughts. Also it also removes the elephant from the room where there are some parents who are often moms who are aghast at the idea of being the non-primary parent, because it's a very big taboo in our society. And so when you tell them, well, it's going to be 50 50, they don't need to fight for the idea of being the primary parent, which I think I've personally been involved in several cases like that, where we're just fighting over the idea, not really over days.
Billie Tarascio (16:23):
Right, right. Yeah. I agree with you. So let's talk about jurisdiction for kiddos because there is a massive difference between one state or one County that has a presumption of, you know, dads are getting every other weekend versus another state or County, which which has a presumption of we're sharing our children equally. But it's much more difficult for parents to impact that the same way they might be able to impact where they get divorced. Talk to me about how courts get jurisdiction over custody issues,
Russell Knight (17:02):
Over custody issues between the States they're governed by the [inaudible], which says that if a child has lived in a state for six months, that is where they're going to be proceeding with the case. It follows usually that that locale will usually keep the child in that same state sort of to watch over the case. But that's not necessarily the case that the locale might say like, yeah, kids have been here with dad for six months, but like, they need to go back with mom after that. And so it's not at the end of the world if the kids are in one place for six months, because even then I still think County to County is very different because that's also my experience in Illinois. The venue for the County is can be, is also another issue, which is sort of its own jurisdictional issue about where the kids live or where the matter started.
Russell Knight (17:57):
And it's usually a lot more flexible and deals with what's the most practical County for the matter to proceed in. When you're dealing with kids it's sensitive and you have to have you'll get experts involved and different kids, different jurisdictions have different systems in Illinois. They have a concept of a guardian ad litem besides everything in a disputed custody case. The guardian ad litem is a lawyer like your eye. Sometimes they make wonderful decisions sometimes. They're really busy cause they're also full-time lawyers and they don't put in the time they need to, to decide a whole family's life in Florida. Guardian ad litems are not often used. And they use child evaluators, which are a psychiatrist or psychologist, which is usually a step up that we do at Illinois. But then that person makes a formal report that is extremely expensive, even compared to lawyer's fees, which the court then relies on because the important thing to know, if you're going through custody issues, there is no possibility that a judge will ever wrap their head around your family's dynamic.
Russell Knight (19:07):
They only get to see hours at a time through the presentation of different lawyers. Therefore, the only way a judge can really understand is by reading a summary or hearing a summary from a child evaluator, from a guardian ad litem from a third party who is properly investigated. And then how do you use that? Third-Party you properly investigate someone who lives in another state. They don't, that's just the reality of it. If the third party has to go do a home visit, they will not visit another state. The only people who can possibly afford this luxury are the super wealthy. And if anybody wants to hire me to fly out to someplace else and see if the child has a safety cap on their yellow lights in their room, they're welcome to, but that strikes me as being really silly. And it also makes it important to where you want to file because you might you might want to have the presumption of mediation depending on where you are. I know every place mediates, but there's mediation is required at least and taken seriously in Florida. Whereas in Chicago, it's sort of a low rent, a four way conference don't even attend.
Billie Tarascio (20:26):
So let's back up. Every single state in the, in the country has adopted the CCJ. It's a uniform app. The way custody child custody is treated throughout the country is exactly the same in every single state. And the reason is that they want to they don't want people forum shopping for child custody issues. And they also want to deter people from picking up kids and taking them to different States away from, you know, their, their other parent and filing. So the rule is that the basic rule is where the child has been for the last six months is the home state. Now that's not always the case, right? What if somebody is fleeing from domestic violence or what if somebody has moved around so much that there isn't a place they've been for the last six months?
Russell Knight (21:21):
The UCC JEA is so detailed that it accommodates exactly almost virtually every possibility of whether a child has been in two States, three States to calculate the majority. I do not know the little detailed rules for those exceptions, but you can look it up.
Billie Tarascio (21:39):
Yeah, there, there are rules. If you're fleeing domestic violence, a state can get emergency jurisdiction. If you've got an infant who's under six months old, there's specific rules for that and people are moving. So often you mentioned that the state that has the initial custody determination, you mentioned a couple of really important things. One of the things you said is just because the state has custody does not mean that that state will decide that the child has to live there and moving forward. And I think that that is so important because sometimes a parent will move out of state. They'll take the kids. They won't be gone for six months. The old state will have jurisdiction, but it does not mean that the children will not be allowed to continue to live out of state. It just means that where the case is heard is that home state where they lived for the initial six months.
Russell Knight (22:35):
That's exactly right.
Billie Tarascio (22:36):
Do you find when that happens, that courts bring kids back or is it half the time? Like if you leave with your child, how likely are you that you get to stay gone?
Russell Knight (22:47):
All my experiences is that if you leave with the child for five months and 29 days, you're coming back that's been my experience. I, I haven't had it one where I fell into the middle ground of it. But if you file and you ask that they come back and they've already moved, they're going to have a problem. If they filed a notice of relocation and they have good cause to move yeah, you're probably going to be you'd probably be able to move depending on your current agreement or the current order, but yeah, you can't move if you don't want to. In fact, if there's, if something's already been filed and you move, it's a crime in many States, it's a crime in Florida.
Billie Tarascio (23:32):
Yeah. It's a crime in Arizona as well. When someone files for divorce, a preliminary injunction goes into place and that injunction says nobody gets to change anything. The status quo stays the same. You can't drop health insurance, you can't life insurance and you certainly can't take your kids and go move out of state.
Russell Knight (23:51):
No, that's exactly. That's exactly the way it is here in Florida. There's a standing order that gets issued saying the same thing. There are no standing orders like that in Illinois to some effect, but there also is. There are laws that require notification of if anyone's going to move the child permanently out of the state,
Billie Tarascio (24:12):
If you're married, even before anyone's filed anything.
Russell Knight (24:15):
Oh no. It's after you've, after it's been filed, it's a problem. While you're married, you cannot kidnap your child.
Billie Tarascio (24:21):
Right. So that's important. Can you explain what you mean by that?
Russell Knight (24:25):
You can't kidnap your child so people often will call it and say like, Oh no, my husband took my child to his parents' place in Indiana. So what as long as you're both married, it's presumed that you both have equal parenting responsibilities. And when I say equal, I mean complete, they either parent can make whatever decision they want to. You could put your child in a hot air. Balloon sounds ridiculous to me, but that would just be a decision. And it's none of the, it's not, it's just not as you for the business. They just presume that the husband and wife will resolve those issues in their own due time. Right?
Billie Tarascio (25:04):
So what that means, it's so important. If, if your spouse leaves and takes your children out of state, here's what that means for you. You can't do anything about it unless, and until you file for divorce or if you're unmarried parents, unless, and until you file to establish some sort of custody order, only at that point, does the court have jurisdiction to bring your child back? Now, the other thing that this means is if you wait too long, if you wait six months, your state loses jurisdiction. And in my experience, the faster you filed to bring your children back, the more likely you are to actually have the court, bring your children back. If you wait, they're already in school, they already have a new doctors. They already have a new life. You're much less likely to have the court bring those children back.
Russell Knight (25:52):
I would completely agree. There's no reason to wait ever.
Billie Tarascio (25:56):
Right? And so that kind of puts people in a, in a tough situation, if they're not sure if they want to file for divorce,
Russell Knight (26:02):
That's very true. So, but you can file for a lot of other things, you can file for a lot of custody issues can get filed for it, at least in Illinois, without having a divorce being filed. But it's kind of kind of silly if your spouse moves away, it takes your children. I mean, maybe you can reconcile, but I think the writing's really on the wall.
Billie Tarascio (26:25):
Right? Right. And so this is another situation that comes up in the UCC JEA. Let's say you wait just longer than six months. You still can make an argument that your home state should have jurisdiction over custody. Now, at that point, if you've got competing petitions, then what happens as far as how do the States determine which state should have custody? Jurisdiction
Russell Knight (26:52):
Often my experience is that is not quite as technical as that, unless the lawyers insist on taking it to an evidentiary hearing and asking for a written opinion, the judges usually call each other and you're in on the call and they discuss what their understanding is. And then the judge tells you, what do you want me to do like this? And then you politely concede if you are definitely in the wrong, but if you wants to take it to a full hearing you will have the opportunity to do that, to prove how long a child was, where and what their relation is to the court. But that's an expensive process. That's really difficult to, it's not enough to just say, they've lived here. You've got to say, this is their address. These are their school records for this time. This proves that they were here. It's going to take a lot. And then you already know where you're going to fall in, in the UCC. JEA has numerous algorithms that determine where a child will stay. So if you already know that, and you're going to take the judge through all those steps, guess what he's going to do. He's just going to follow the UCC JEA cause otherwise you'll be appealed and he'll be turned over.
Billie Tarascio (28:04):
And at that point, if you are really fighting over jurisdiction and you're making a claim like you know, this is the more convenient for them were all of the evidences in a certain state. You really don't want to do that on your own. You really want to make sure that you've got a lawyer helping you with that issue because it's extremely narrow and you're not talking about the best interest of the child. You're talking about the specific issue of jurisdiction. There's a lot of case law on this situ on this issue. And you want to make sure that you get it right and you're not cutting corners. Now let's talk about there's a couple more things I want to talk about orders of protection. Okay. Where can someone file for order of protection?
Russell Knight (28:44):
They can file for an order of protection. Typically in the jurisdiction that they live in because they're protecting themselves. So if their spouse is out of state and sends them menacing phone calls, they would go to their own local County that handles harassment or domestic violence, and then file for an order of protection in their own jurisdiction, no matter where the other matter, where the perpetrator lives.
Billie Tarascio (29:13):
Yeah. And, and what if, what if someone is bullying a situation of domestic violence and they go to a new state, can they file the order protection there?
Russell Knight (29:23):
Usually there's an exception in the statutes. I personally haven't dealt with that anytime recently. So I'm not a hundred percent sure, but there's always an age, domestic violence exception in the statutes to my recollection.
Billie Tarascio (29:38):
Yeah. So the domestic violence, the orders of protection are federal they're federal. It's a federal statute that came out of the violence against women act. And there's special wolves regarding orders of protection. They can't, the courts cannot charge you a filing fee and you're allowed to walk into any courthouse. So in Arizona that means a municipal courthouse or a superior courthouse and or justice court and get yourself an order of protection. Same day. Is that true? Where you're at as well?
Russell Knight (30:10):
We get an order of protection, same day, wherever I've been. Yeah.
Billie Tarascio (30:14):
Interestingly in Arizona, right now, the only hearings that are happening in person are order of protection hearings. And those aren't even, actually in person, you go to the courthouse, you sit in front of a computer and you have your order of protection hearing that way
Russell Knight (30:28):
You in, in Florida. We also it's in person, but it's definitely in person.
Billie Tarascio (30:32):
Oh, really? Actually in person. And are people wearing masks in court with the judge? Yes.
Russell Knight (30:36):
It's the one place where you see everybody wearing a mask, so,
Billie Tarascio (30:39):
Oh, that's funny. Okay. the other thing I want to talk about is multi-state parenting plans. What are you seeing for out-of-state parenting plans or multi-state parenting plans?
Russell Knight (30:52):
You have the standard out-of-state dad or mom, a parenting plan. It counts for the first place you start is every school district will have approximately six, three day weekends. You identify those. And that's what the out-of-state parents will be able to exercise their time. During the other state parent can exercise their time during those weekends. And then there's other standard holidays. If there's a fall break that usually includes Thanksgiving break and that rotates every other year. So winter break has two weeks, one year, one week, the second week you rotate those. So the first week, which usually includes Christmas will be mom's week. And then the second week, which includes new year's will be dad's week. And the next year we'll rotate it again. So that the first week becomes dads. The second week is moms. Spring break is usually always the out-of-state parents time. And then summer can be anywhere from two weeks where the out of state parents to the entirety of the summer. So that's usually what I've seen for out-of-state parents. Otherwise some parents, you know, they drift away and then they create a liberal visitation plan saying, I'll see you when I can see you. And I'll give you a fair warning, two weeks in advance. And those plans never work. The people become estranged from their children.
Billie Tarascio (32:17):
Yeah. I agree with you. I mean, parenting plans should be structured and parenting time should be structured, whether you're in state or out of state. And if you don't make that a commitment, then it's just too easy to get things scheduled. And it's too easy for one parent to interfere with the other person's ability to see the kids. So what makes the difference between someone getting two weeks in the summer and all of the summer?
Russell Knight (32:43):
Probably by agreement before, but if a person didn't have an agreement and then the children had a lot of extracurricular activities that encompassed a big part of the summer, they're going to spend the summer in the location where the primary parent lives experience. Otherwise, you know, courts are going to want to give the out-of-state parent as much time as possible. But like the out of state parents got a lot of work to do. It's got kids, aren't just going to sit around his or her house for 11 weeks. There's gotta be activities too that are out of that they can do. So it's, it's really tough to do. Out-Of-State parenting. It's really, really tough.
Billie Tarascio (33:27):
And what about flights? Like at what age are children flying alone?
Russell Knight (33:32):
There is a mandatory escort up until age 15 or 16, where it has to be somebody that takes them to the gate, make sure they get on and make sure to get off the plane and then gets to the person who's going to pick them up. These eSports are expensive. They can be some, they're usually between a hundred and $200. And unless you're traveling across the country, it doesn't the same price as the ticket as it is. So then it's advisable that under 14, that the out of state parent comes and picks them up and then takes them back. So it's just a quick trip, I guess, but that's a lot of traveling for the out-of-state parent. It's really tough to be an out-of-state parent.
Billie Tarascio (34:18):
So is this for Illinois and Florida, both States put that responsibility on the out-of-state parent.
Russell Knight (34:25):
Not really. It's mostly by agreements, but then the argument is that, Hey, they're the ones that moved. Why am I going to pack up and deliver my children to you in a state? You move to a bridge too far for most improvements and most judges decisions.
Billie Tarascio (34:43):
[Inaudible] Okay. Final topic I want to discuss is jurisdiction over property and that could be real property or it could be bank accounts. So let's say I own a house in Florida, but I live in Arizona. I'm getting a divorce in Arizona. Does the Arizona court get to have jurisdiction to let's say, force a sale in Florida.
Russell Knight (35:09):
They do because they have jurisdiction over the person and personal jurisdiction. They can say, no, I'm going to order you to list this house for sale. And then if you don't sign on that sales agreement, then they can remain you to the Sheriff's office. Aren't apply any other sanctions. They find a property. So it's not really, they don't really need jurisdiction over anything with you.
Billie Tarascio (35:37):
Okay. All right. Fantastic. you have been the perfect guest to talk about jurisdiction with having a law office in two States. Is there anything I missed or anything you think the listeners should know?
Russell Knight (35:53):
Yeah. I think you should bring up the fact what happens in a foreign country. Very briefly. It gets even more complicated because then there's a second tree has been encompasses, not all the countries, a lot of countries. And then these countries apply. The treaty is called the hang trick convention treaty differently. And so you can keep your child from getting a passport. If they other parents belongs to another one of these non-white convention countries or a country that typically doesn't properly observe those the hang convention because you have a passport and you're showing up the passport, you'll probably be able to get on that plane. And the issue is what about foreign property? Afforded property operates the exact same way as the Arizona versus Florida house that we talked about the courthouse in Illinois, Arizona, Florida, Chantel, a conduit, Mexico. You belong to mom when you used to want a dad where they can do is they can say, dad, sign over the deed to mom, or you go to jail in Illinois.
Billie Tarascio (36:57):
Yeah. I'm really glad that you brought that up. People get married in different countries. They can still get divorced here. And so that's one issue. And then the other issue is what happens when someone takes a child out of the country. So the Hague convention is this international treaty that not all countries have signed on to, but many have that basically agrees to the home state concept that, that the wherever the child lived for. I think it's six months, but I could be wrong. Is the state that gets to hear the custody action. It doesn't mean that they're going to extradite. It doesn't mean people are going to get arrested. It does mean that they're not going to, that. You're not going to be able to take a child to, you know, some other country and get a full custody determination for the parent who has taken that child to a different country. But those cases are really hard and really complicated. And you definitely need an attorney for those. Do you do a lot of those cases?
Russell Knight (37:59):
No, I don't. I'm too busy to learn them. Is that a law?
Billie Tarascio (38:04):
Absolutely. So how can people get ahold of you if they aren't? Well, where in Florida are you first?
Russell Knight (38:11):
And I practice in Collier County, which isn't the Southwestern Florida, but in Zoom, I can kind of be anywhere at any time. I'm doing the other counties in Illinois. It's the same thing I'm in cook County, but I Zoom all over the place in Illinois. And I think that's the way everything's going to be for them forever.
Billie Tarascio (38:29):
It's true. Well, I will make sure I have all of your contact information in the show notes. Thank you so much being on today. I really appreciate your time.
Billie Tarascio (38:38):
Thanks so much for listening to the modern divorce podcast. Remember anything you've heard today or anything you read online is not the replacement for actual consultation with an attorney and does not create an attorney client relationship. Even if you called in and we spoke to you, you were anonymous and we don't have your details. And you've now become a client of modern law. However, we would love to speak with you, or you should seek out the advice of legal counsel or counseling or any other expert near you. And if you have an idea for a show topic, or you need to speak with an attorney in Arizona, you can reach me at info@mymodernlaw.