Detox Your Relationship With Your High Conflict Ex

Can't stand to be around your Ex? But you have to, right? All the kids events and obligations throw you two together.

In this episode, family law attorney Elise Buie of Elise Buie Family Law Group (elisebuiefamilylaw.com) in Seattle, WA, takes off her attorney hat and puts on her divorced mom hat, talking through all the dramas that got her to a point where she could breathe the same air as her ex. 

The big question is: do you hate your ex more than you love your kids? Host Billie Tarascio breaks it down with Elise on how to get  beyond the conflict; for your own sake and for the kids.

Transcript

Billie Tarascio (00:04):

Hi, there it's Billie Tarascio from the modern divorce podcast. And today I am so excited to be joined by one of my favorite people. Elise Buie, Elise is a family law attorney owner of a firm in Seattle. She also served as a guardian ad litem and as a parenting coordinator. And I'm so excited to talk to her about how parents can better deal with high conflict situations and protect your children. Thank you so much for being here, Elise. Oh, thanks Billy. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. So first, can you tell us a little bit more about your background?

Elise Buie (00:39):

Sure. I mean, I'm a family law attorney in Seattle, but I come to that pretty circuitous really. I mean, I was an attorney in new Orleans forever, lived in new Orleans, my whole life, till that little storm hit hurricane Katrina. Then we had to, you know, zip across to Georgia. We evacuated to my then husband now ex-husband's, family's home in Georgia with our slew of children. We showed up one night and we're like, hi, here we are. And we didn't tell them we were coming. We didn't think they were going to appreciate the showing up. So we thought it best to just surprise them. And we stayed there for a full year. You know, new Orleans was a disaster. My husband got relicensed in Georgia. He's an attorney as well. We then decided we were going to move. So we moved to Minnesota and this whole entire time he and I knew we were going to get a divorce.

Elise Buie (01:29):

I mean, we had started a divorce, big discussion before the hurricane hit. So we had to kind of put our nose down and figure out how were we going to deal with this pretty big disruption, you know? And we decided to stay together solely to just stabilize the family, you know, so that we could figure out where we're going. We moved to Minnesota, I retook the bar exam. There started a practice there. And then we decided, okay, yes, we could divorce. Things were like more stable, you know, finances were more normal. And so we did that and then I got remarried to somebody in Seattle. And so then I moved to Seattle with all the children, his blessing, and then he has come, my ex moved to Seattle as well. And then I started a family law firm here in Seattle. Wow.

Billie Tarascio (02:17):

Okay. So right off the bat, this sounds like a fantasy divorce.

Elise Buie (02:23):

Yes.

Billie Tarascio (02:26):

So anybody who really can break up and both be on the same page it's so where I don't want to say it never happens because we do the uncontested divorces, but typically it is rare for two people to be on the same page on timing that, that a marriage needs to end. So let's start there. How did you do that?

Elise Buie (02:47):

Well, I would say we were not on the same page as far as timing went. It took, I was, I think we're ready to get out before he was in, but I also knew just though hadn't practiced family law by then. I just knew from all my reading, it was going to go a lot better if I could get him to where he was ready as well, rather than me just being like peace out, you know, I'm gone. And especially with the context of all these little children, we have four children. I mean, I think there were like 10 and under at the time. So I really kind of, I think worked really hard. Went to counseling with him, did things to kind of help get him to a place where we really didn't have what I call a lever in a left behind. I mean, we had two people who knew the relationship was not good for us and it was not good for our children. And so then it became a matter of how do we problem solve around how do we make a situation as good as we could for our children out of our divorce. That was inevitable.

Billie Tarascio (03:50):

Yeah. I think the exit matters. Oh, it matters a lot. Yeah.

Elise Buie (03:57):

Huge. I mean, don't you do those consults with clients where you're, you know, you're talking to the lever, who's literally year they've been gone for years emotionally and it's like, wait a minute, we got to slow this train down or this is going to be a disaster.

Billie Tarascio (04:14):

Yes. And I'm so glad you mentioned that because typically I think by the time somebody is ready to come see an attorney and file for divorce, it has been about a three-year process three years. They've already mourned the loss of their marriage. They come to terms with the fact they've lost hope in the future of their marriage. And they've decided there's no other way than to get divorced, which is a terrible, awful thing that all of us mourn. Yep. So how long did it take you to, to get your spouse caught up to you.

Elise Buie (04:46):

A while? Because so hurricane Katrina hit in 2005, and that was the, I mean, I started considering divorce actually within weeks of quitting my law firm job when I had child number three, which was around 1999. So things were bad on, in progressing worse from 1999 to 2005. And then when 2005 came, I think he and I were both pretty okay at that point to do it, then the hurricane hit and it kind of threw everything up in the air. And so we then had to say, okay, let's not, you know, decimate everything and let's figure out how to resettle somewhere, get the kids settled financially. You know, as an attorney, you don't just go show up in a new town, hang your shingle in the, you know, main street and you've got a job. You got to pass a bar exam, or you've got to get licensed.

Elise Buie (05:45):

We both have had Louisiana legal licenses, which have no reciprocity. So I mean, we each had to go take a new bar exam, which is a nine month application, you know, character and this process. I mean, it's a slow going thing. So financially that was really tough post Katrina, you know, to go through that. And he got licensed first because his practice was up and running in New Orleans and he had a federal part to his practice. So we, you know, focused on that. Whereas I did not, I was not working. So I was home homeschooling our kids at the time. So I just continued to do that. And we decided the hurricane was a great time to learn to horseback ride. So we became like the horseback riding family, but and then once we got to Minnesota and I was able to, you know, get licensed there as well. And then we were really able to say, okay, now we can do this.

Billie Tarascio (06:40):

Okay. So did your marriage have high conflict when you leading up to the time when you decided to get a divorce?

Elise Buie (06:49):

Absolutely. Oh yeah. I mean, and I was not, I was nowhere near as educated. I am on the damage. I was causing my children through that conflict. I mean, we had some doozy arguments that, you know, especially my two older children, you know, knew about, could hear, do you know what I mean? Like were, it was not always pretty for sure. And you know, and that's something I kind of live with now and, you know, I have to continually, I realize almost that my two older children led a very different existence and, you know, with the developmental stages they were in, it was very different than my two younger children. I mean the four kids have very different experiences about what they remember, what, how they see our divorce, the whole thing. And, you know, that's something I still obviously struggle with because, you know, you don't mean to cause that damage. So many of us don't realize we're doing it when it's happening.

Billie Tarascio (07:48):

Right. And, and I think the bigger issue is how, how can it be avoided?

Elise Buie (07:55):

Oh, to me, that's like that is the game-changing issue is how can you go through this process in a way that you are not taking down your children with your marriage, you know, that you are able to see how that conflict is damaging them and then be able to avoid it in such a way that it's, you know, it's something that your children, obviously, they're going to have trauma sadness, all those things just from the transition. But I mean, there's a lot that you can do, you know, as the parents to put your children, I say, put them in the center of your decisions and make them the focus of your decisions, but don't get them caught in the middle of your fight. I mean, there's a big difference between, you know, child centered parenting decisions and having them caught in the middle of a nasty divorce.

Billie Tarascio (08:47):

Absolutely. Okay. I have so many questions because this topic is so important and it's so important to people who are getting divorced and everybody knows they want to protect their kids. But knowing that you want to protect your kids and having the ability to do it are two different things, especially because you've got two people and these two people are at war. So if you're deciding between, do I stay in a house where there's high conflict or do I move out, what's better slowing it down and staying in the same house or moving out.

Elise Buie (09:20):

I think it really depends on the parents and their ability to mentally handle it. I mean, you know, I'm no scientist or a psychologist, but I really think based on people's emotional intelligence, you know, can they keep themselves grounded and centered? Can they not bite on those things that their spouse is saying? And I mean, we all know what I'm talking about. You know, where somebody drops those little quips that are just ugly and they are hurtful. And I mean, if you bite on it at all, if you show emotion, if it's going to be something that's going to impact your mood around the children, I say being separated is way better. I think being in a home filled with conflict is very negative for children. And I mean, in my work as a guardian ad litem, I see that all the time, whereas the minute they're able to split and that tension is able to come down.

Elise Buie (10:14):

I mean, the children, you can almost sense a sigh of relief when you're, when I'm like evaluating the children and I may be visiting them at schools or at home. I see totally different children in two homes that are peaceful than in one home that's filled with conflict. Now, obviously finances really come into play here, whether somebody can afford two homes and what they can do. And I mean, I think that was one thing, at least for my ex and I, when, when we did do the split and I came out here to Seattle and he did not come out here to Seattle immediately, he stayed in Minnesota. And so we would do the back and forth thing. But I mean, when we actually bought our house here in Seattle, we bought a house big enough. So he would have a room in it so that he could come and stay out here with the kids in their own home so that, you know, he could go to parent-teacher conferences, meet their friends, drive them to lacrosse, you know what I mean, whatever you do as a parent, but all those things. And then Doug and I would go, we had a house on Whidbey Island and we would just go up there when he would come in down. And and it worked really well because it allowed him to have, you know, all that experience.

Billie Tarascio (11:23):

That is so it's like the dream. And and I think most people would cringe at the idea of having their ex come stay in their house. So how did you get from this high conflict marriage to this very workable divorce, post divorce relationship with the father of your children,

Elise Buie (11:52):

Truly through my guardian Ad litem work, I mean, you get trained in enough damage that's occurring. And I came to fully appreciate my part in that damage, in my part, in causing harm to my own children. And I mean, that was not my intention. You know, I often say to people, do you hate your ex more than you love your child? Or do you love your child more than you hate your ex? You've got to make that call. I mean, and it's as fundamental as that. And I mean, I fundamentally love my children way more than I hate my ex. And when I realized the damage that I was doing, I mean, I made very distinct actions to stop and to really change. And I mean, I had to really change a lot of things because I mean, I was a stay at home mom. My ex, you know, owed me all kinds of money, like spousal maintenance, child support, all the things.

Elise Buie (12:46):

And he was not so great at doing those things. And I would get like upset and angry. And I literally woke up one day and I was like, this is the most ridiculous way for me to spend my life like upset and angry at him not doing something that has been kind of the bane of 18 years of marriage. So why do I think it's going to change out your yes. And so I decided that, and then I, it, I'll never forget telling Doug I've just looked at him one day and I said, I'm going to go earn circles around this clown. I never ever want to need his money again.

Billie Tarascio (13:22):

So much of what you just said there that I think is so critical. The things that we don't like about our ex post divorce are the same things that we didn't like when we were married.

Elise Buie (13:34):

A hundred percent.

Billie Tarascio (13:36):

And those are never going to go away. They're totally worse, absolutely worse. They're never going to go away. So what are some actionable things that we can do to make changes ourselves, to make things better for our kids?

Elise Buie (13:50):

Go get a counselor or coach, I mean, get some help, like realize that you are caught in that spiral, you know, and that you are finding yourself angered, like where your feelings are impacted by your ex. I mean, I got to the point that I realized that it was insane that my ex could cause any kind of negative feeling in my life. Like that was just, that was me handing him over my power. And that makes zero sense to me, you know, in a post-divorce setting. So, you know, coming to terms with that, that I was going to own all of my power and in my mind that included my emotional power, physical power and financial power, you know, and that meant that I was going to just go back to work and I was going to start again, take a bar in Washington, start again.

Elise Buie (14:44):

And I mean, I, I moved to Seattle and started at a $25 an hour job as a case in a mediation office, you know, and that is what I did when I first arrived here in 2011. And, you know, since then I have completely flipped that. And and it is what it is. And I mean, my ex still goes and lives on many of things I have. I mean, he's been in my home during the pandemic because he lives actually on a sailboat. And so when the pandemic first hit, he stayed in our Seattle house with my son who was a junior in high school. And then he is now they, my son has been in Seattle and we bought a large boat and it's a long story, but my son has lived on that during his senior year. And David goes over and cooks for him every night. Like they have this lovely old time and they discuss all their boating things that they like to do. So it's all good. That's true.

Billie Tarascio (15:42):

Really fantastic. Everything I heard you say was that you have to change you, you have to stop depending on your ex for anything. And if you are dependent on anything, be it financial, emotional, practical, figure out another plan.

Elise Buie (16:00):

Yep, absolutely.

Billie Tarascio (16:01):

And That's pretty, I think doable, the other part is a lot harder figuring out how to emotionally turn off the triggers that took so many years to create and, and, you know, the emotional reactivity that people have from their exes. It drives them crazy,

Elise Buie (16:22):

But it ruins their life. I just, I feel like people are, I mean, they're taken down really sad, angry rabbit holes by sometimes the simplest of things, just getting an email, seeing that person's name or getting a text message. And literally I heard the most brilliant thing the other day. I work as a parenting coordinator. So I, a lot of times live in between high conflict couples and make it where they don't see each other's names and they only see my name and, you know, and I take out all those triggering words and things. And obviously, I mean, I cost a fair amount by the hour, so that's not always cost effective. I work with somebody here in Seattle named Saundra, who I delegate things to. She just does everything. She's amazing. Well, she has a client and she actually told me during our maximum mom podcast that she has a client who was getting super angry.

Elise Buie (17:17):

So she hires Sondra just to read the emails and bottom line at, for her. So she doesn't have to see them because it was causing her all this emotional upset. And I mean, boy has that made my mind run. I'm like, I'm going to start a business that just will read your emails, you know, forget all the, the legal training of parenting coordination and all this and the court reports and whatever. It's like, let's just make your life better. Let's just not read the email, not be triggered. And I mean, when I used to read emails and then I'd respond, my kids used to say, Ooh, that must have been a bad email. Cause they would hear me clickety, clickety, clickety click.

Billie Tarascio (17:59):

Yeah, absolutely. So I think figuring out what the triggers are and then you got two options, you can figure out how to avoid them. But the other thing that has personally really helped to me has been, has been EMDR, which stands for eye movement rapid desensitization. Yeah. I think I may have had it wrong, but it, it, it actually like reduces the emotional reactivity and the sensitivity to triggers, which is so valuable with an ex.

Elise Buie (18:36):

I mean, it's kind of life-changing.

Billie Tarascio (18:39):

Yeah. None of us want to be, you know, our, we all want to be our best selves. We want to show up at parent teacher conferences that are joint and not be like, you know, falling apart human. You don't want to be that person, but if every time their voice starts talking, you become unglued. Like that's going to, it's going to ruin your parent teacher conference.

Elise Buie (19:04):

Well, I mean, it ruins everything for the children. Yeah. I mean, it's, it has been fascinating because I mean, obviously at first we would, we could pass in the night though. And it was interesting because even though we set up all this stuff from our kids' vantage point, things are flowing, you know, David's coming into the house, Doug and I are leaving. Like we don't even see each other. We just he's got a key or he has the code and whatever. And so it flowed well, but I mean, then over time we got to the point where we could attend football games together and, you know, go to things and drive far places and he would show up and we'd sit by each other and all, you know, he might drive some kids. I might drive some kids and we'd all be there to see, you know, one of the other kids play a game or, you know, be involved in a tournament and, you know, and at first the kids were like nervous about it.

Elise Buie (19:56):

They were like, well, how's this going to go? And it's like, this is going to go just fine. I mean, there's not even the slightest problem. And that has been really fascinating, I think for our children to see, and especially during this pandemic for Ethan, our youngest, I mean, to be able to see David and I just communicate about the house, the pets, you know, I'm like calling him, are you taking good care of my kitties? And like, you know, the whole bit like, and then when we wanted to sell the house, I was like, okay, I need you to pack up this room since you're chilling in my house. And, you know, and he was like, all right, fair enough. And so, wow. And that was really good for Ethan, you know, to seek all that kind of just collaboration. And I mean, obviously the pandemic provided just another for us, a second natural disaster type of thing where like, okay, we need to just put our noses down and do what's right for at the point then Ethan and figure out how do we get through this with his little upset to him as possible?

Billie Tarascio (20:58):

Well, you were both on the same page at that point. He could do that. You could do that. Yeah. And it sounds like you may be an advocate of a kind of parallel parenting. Is that, is that true?

Elise Buie (21:10):

Yeah, definitely. I think parallel parenting works really well in most high conflict situations. Assuming you have two healthy people, you know, it becomes a real problem. I think when one side of that equation is really mentally unstable or has got some, you know, tendencies that are really troubling because then I think there's sometimes concerns about, you know, the children's safety, whether it's emotional or, you know, making sure maybe all their academics are taken care of and those types of things. But I think we co-parents can learn that too. You know where, I mean, there is no doubt. I was the parent that was like on duty for the things, you know, schooling and whatever. And, but my kids also know like, okay, that's mom's strength. And I mean, David is this Jammin cook. Like I can burn any meal. David can cook. I mean, he can look in the most empty pathetic refrigerator and whip up the most delicious dinner.

Elise Buie (22:12):

So when my kids would be like, what's for dinner, I'm like, I don't know, go to your dad because he is going to be able to whip it out and it's going to be amazing. So, you know, trying to teach the kids to like, how do you like get work to your both parents strengths, you know? Right. And that's part of reality, let's be serious. I mean, you know, when you go to a job, you're going to have bosses that have different strengths and weaknesses. And I mean, why play up their weaknesses? I mean, let's figure out how to work to each other's strengths and get what they need. And so, I mean, I've always encouraged my children to, you know, work to their dad's strengths. He loves to do outside things. He takes them hiking, sailing, you know, all those kinds of things. I'm like, go off.

Elise Buie (22:59):

Well, that's another thing I have to say. You know how some parents really struggle with what they call like the Disneyland dad. I'm like totally fine with the Disneyland dad. I'm like, you know, what if your dad wants to take you and do fun things and that's his jam, I mean, go have fun. Like go do it. I mean, I don't, there's not one iota of upset or jealousy or whatever. I mean, obviously if I want to go be a Disneyland mom simultaneously, I can, I don't tend to, because I do, I have been the mom doing all the things. And so when I've, I haven't had the money a lot of times, you know, historically to do things and, but I'm like, you know what? That's okay. If that's what you're doing, go have fun. I mean, kids need that. They need fun.

Billie Tarascio (23:46):

Well, that is truly loving your kids more than you hate your ex. That is truly being bigger than yourself. When you can say, I wish I could do these things with my kids and I can't, and I still am happy that they get to go do it.

Elise Buie (24:00):

A hundred percent.

Billie Tarascio (24:01):

And especially when he wasn't paying you. He wasn't paying. And instead he was taking the kids and being Disneyland. Dad, I can understand how that really makes moms mad. How is it that you can, and I shouldn't say moms

Billie Tarascio (24:16):

Because this happens with sexist, right. But how,

Billie Tarascio (24:19):

How did you get to that place where you were really like, I'm letting it go?

Elise Buie (24:24):

It, it was my selfish, it was selfish for me because I didn't want to be angry. I did not want to give over one more day, week, month to him for my emotional wellbeing at all. I mean, like I had it. And when I told Doug the day that I was going to just like earn circles around this clown, I took that so seriously. And I kind of went on a mission and I put all the kids through college. I mean, I've done all the things that I needed to do. He has not participated in those things. And what can I do? I can't force. I mean, you know, yeah. Could I take him to court time and time again? Of course. Do I want to spend my hard earned money in a contempt hearing? Oh, hell no, no. Right. I'd rather pay for a month of, you know, food for a kid or whatever. I just, I, and so, and I knew I had the potential to do that. And so I just decided to focus my energy on that and not allow him to be involved in my emotions at all. And it's been really inspirational for me to do what I do.

Billie Tarascio (25:38):

I bet. I bet it was so freeing. And liberating and empowering.

Elise Buie (25:42):

Oh yeah. All those things, all those things. I mean, I've thanked him. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Billie Tarascio (25:54):

You were like, David, I thank you for being a deadbeat, not paying your child support.

Elise Buie (25:58):

Absolutely. It, it allowed me to be my best self. It really did. And it allowed me to grow in ways that I would never have grown. I mean, I would never have done a lot of the things I've done had I not had the necessity to. And I think that sometimes, you know, that the necessity is the mother of invention. And I think that it was, and I think it's shown my kids all kinds of things. I mean, you know, I mean the kids know like who's been sending them to college and, but all that is good. I mean, I also think kids can learn, you know, you learn both how to act, how not to act, how your actions impact others, how somebody can take actions and decide that they're not going to impact them. I mean, my kids have learned a lot of positive things and I mean, I think that and even during the pandemic watching me be concerned for their dad or, you know, like concerned, you know, did he have everything he needed at the time? And you know, my children were like, what are you doing? And I'm like, we're in a pandemic. Like, you know, this is not, this is a time that, you know, I need to reach out and help your father not be a problem.

Billie Tarascio (27:18):

Elise, I literally could talk to you all day. I miss you. I wish we could hang out more. I mean, and I think this conversation has been so valuable, so I'll probably have to have you on again, but we're out of time for today. Tell our listeners how they can reach you.

Elise Buie (27:35):

Well, I mean, you can go to our website; elisebuiefamilylaw.com and that's, you know, my law firm's website in Seattle. And then you can always email me. I always am happy to answer people's questions because I know we have sort of a unicorn situation. And so people often are like, Whoa, how did that go down? Yeah.

Billie Tarascio (27:57):

Yeah. Well, thank you so much. I hope you have a wonderful day and we'll talk again soon.

Billie Tarascio (28:02):

Thank you so much. You too. Enjoy your holidays. You too. Bye. Bye.