Naming A Guardian After Divorce

So now that your marriage is over, what happens to your kids if something happened and you died? Who would take care of them? Do you want your ex and family to keep your parents and family members from seeing the kids. Probably not.

In this episode, family law attorney Billie Tarascio talks with divorced dad, and estate planning attorney Rilus Dana, where they walk through the process of how to do a quick and legit will naming guardianship and then how to make sure your assets go to your children and not to your ex (unless that's what you want!).

To find Rilus Dana online, go to DanaLegalHelp.com. And to connect with Billie Tarascio, you can send an email to info@mymodernlaw.com or go to her website MyModernLaw.com.

Transcript

Billie Tarascio (00:04):

Hi there. This is Billie Tarascio from the modern divorce podcast. And today is guest is going to be a little bit different because up until now, we've, we've really talked to divorce professionals or mental health professionals and attorneys. And now I've got one of my good friends on the state planning attorney, Rilus Dana here with me, but Rilus is not only an estate planning attorney who's local. He is also a divorced dad. And so he's going to give us his perspective on modern parenting post divorce. Rilus, thank you so much for being here.

Rilus Dana (00:41):

Thanks for having me. It's great to be here and I liked the intro that we're doing at different today's show is going to be a little bit different. So that's good. I'm glad we can start off that way.

Billie Tarascio (00:51):

Absolutely. Let's mix it up a little bit. So the reason I had first asked you to come on is because people are asking me all the time. I'm a divorced parent. I have custody of my kids. What happens to me if I die? How do I make sure that my children do not end up, you know, with my ex full-time, because my ex is not a good guy or because I'm really worried about it or et cetera, et cetera. Now write lists what's what can people do?

Rilus Dana (01:21):

I love that. So I get that question too, you know, from, you know, they meet with someone like you. A lot of times you'll get into divorce and you'll say, you know, I'm, I'm, you know talk to an estate planning attorney, or sometimes they start with me. So I get a lot of calls as well from a lot of my friends and clients. And I'm one of the first to know sometimes, you know, that they're you're going to get divorced and they say, you know, what, what do I need to do? So good. So here's what you need to do. So step one, I'm glad I have some prompts here, paper pen. I think the easiest way to change it is to do all the graphic will. That means handwritten. So after, so once you file and you can help me on this, you know, this area better, but once you file for divorce, that cancels everything. Is that true? You like your estate planning contracts and the beneficiary designation and your life insurance and retirement accounts.

Billie Tarascio (02:29):

Well, I think that that's true for your will. There's a presumption under Arizona law that, that, that your will is revoked upon filing for divorce, but your beneficiaries, that that's a contract. So your IRA beneficiaries, your life insurance beneficiaries, those are still in place unless you change that.

Rilus Dana (02:49):

Yeah. Or unless the contract says otherwise, right. I didn't think about those as well. Because they may not say that. And if they're in another state now is this, is this part of the rule as well? Do you have to file for divorce? And it also has to end in divorce, right? So if you file and don't complete the divorce, yes. I'm getting mixed up between California.

Billie Tarascio (03:16):

Or not. So, so there's a couple issues, right? So as soon as we filed for divorce, then there's a presumption that the will is revoked. But if someone dies pending a divorce, which has happened several times in our office and is a bigger risk now because of the coronavirus than it really ever has been at that point, your will, that was in place is still in place. So your spouse is set to inherit most of the time. And, and under the intestate rules, this is still your spouse. So if you don't have a will in place and you die pending a divorce, your property is going to transfer to your spouse or your soon to be ex spouse.

Rilus Dana (03:57):

Yeah. So, so when I get that call from my friends, from my clients, you know, w what do I do? I say, you know, get out, you know, do you have a piece of paper and a pen? Here's what you can do right now. You can do a handwritten will, and then come see me and we can finalize it later. Or oftentimes they have to wait for the divorce to finalize. So, but we can get started by creating a new, single trust. And then after the divorce is complete, they put their assets in their new trust because you can't start moving assets around.

Billie Tarascio (04:34):

When you filed for divorce, a preliminary injunction goes into place that says, essentially, that makes you stop certain things. Now that means you can't take somebody off your health insurance, you can't change insurance, beneficiary designations. You really have to do that before you file for divorce. But what you can do is you can update your healthcare power of attorney, your living will, your advanced directive.

Rilus Dana (04:55):

Yeah. So I say that the easiest way, you know, just with a piece of paper, you could say, you know, I revoke, you know, all you know, gifts, contracts, you know, made to this person, date it and sign it. That, that way you have a new last will and Testament that you described, you know, if, if someone passes away during the divorce, now there's a will in play. And then at least, it's something else for those other contracts, you know, but I think you're gonna have to go contact those places, right? You don't want to contact depending on what it is. I don't know if you can change your retirement accounts. A lot of times they want a spousal consent.

Billie Tarascio (05:45):

Right. And the preliminary injunction stops you from doing that. So we've got two issues, we've got the money issues, and then we've got the kid issues. And the question that, that I want to talk to you about today is this is post divorce, you know, post divorce. We're three, four, five, six years out after divorce. And you've got a custody agreement in place. Let's say it's 50, 50, or whatever it might be. If you die, can you name a guardian for your children during your parenting time? Or do your children automatically become you know, go immediately to your, your ex spouse or their, their other parent immediately upon one parent's death?

Rilus Dana (06:36):

Well, I love this question. I I'll tell you what I tell people, but I want to ask you, cause, cause again, you, you deal with this more, I'd say in the family law area. So here, here's what I tell people. So in the last will and Testament, you can name a guardian. And what I tell people is, yeah, you can name who the guardian is, but if they're, you know, the other parent, if they have some custody already, you know, if they have any amount of custody, you know, even if it's like 10%, 5%, it's my guess that the court is first going to go to them. You know, as the parent to take over you kind of the rest of the custody. And I tell people, you can say what you want to have happen, but just understand it's probably going to go to that other parent, am I close? What do you think? Like, how does it, how does it work? Okay,

Billie Tarascio (07:29):

Well, yeah, you're, you're, you're absolutely right. Parents are, when you die, the legal parents will have all rights of custody and parenting time, your legal custody rights and parenting time rights are gone if you pass and they cannot be passed on to someone else that you name as guardian. But I think by setting up that will and Testament, and by naming that guardian and by maybe laying out why it's so important that you are giving guardianship to this person, you can help influence if those, if those people want to come get visitation rights after you've passed. And then the other thing you can do is of course you can protect your children financially, because even if the other spouse is getting, even if the other parent gets a a hundred percent custody of your kids, all of that money that you've left to your kids, you don't necessarily want to be managed by the other parent.

Rilus Dana (08:26):

Right? So that that's the easy part is the money. And we can definitely separate the money. So I tell them on the, on the guardian side, you know, to have some amount of custody, probably not, but we can definitely take care of your money, you know, decide who's going to manage it on behalf of the kids.

Billie Tarascio (08:45):

And then if you have a situation where one parent is not involved at all, that's when parents are really concerned about passing and having their children go live with this other person that they don't know that they don't have a relationship with. And at that point, I think it's more important than ever to name a guardian. And to equip that guardian with the information they need on how they can become the custodial figures to the children, if the parent,

Rilus Dana (09:15):

Yeah. So in a case where you know, one parent has zero custody and at the other person, then a hundred percent passes away. If that other parent came forward, they would probably give them the custody. Is that, is that true? If they say, you know what, I'm long lost, you know, father or mother could be you know, I want to be involved in my kids now. I'm, I'm guessing that the court would probably say, yeah, family member, parent, is that true? You think, or in your experience,

Billie Tarascio (09:51):

Custody is, is an interesting thing because there's custody and family court, there's custody and probate court, which is guardianship. And then there's custody in juvenile court, which can also be guardianship or CPS custody. And the rules are different in each of these courts. So it, and then, and then the other first question is what is the legal status of the parents? Now you can be a biological parent without any legal standing. Now, if that's the case, if you're a biological parent whose legal rights have never been established, then you don't have rights that are superior to anyone else.

Rilus Dana (10:25):

I didn't realize there's different levels of a biological parent with no standing,

Billie Tarascio (10:31):

Right? So, I mean, you could be a biological father that whose paternity has never been established. You're not on the birth certificate. You've never filed anything in court. You have no legal rights at that point.

Rilus Dana (10:43):

Yeah. So here's what I tell people in that situation, when they have a hundred percent and they're like, you know what, I want to make sure that my kids don't end up in the hands of this person. What I tell people, and I've, I've heard this from other estate planning professionals is that I have them write a letter, you know, whether they're speaking from the grave, essentially, you know, and you're saying why that person should not be the guardian of their children. And then we seal that letter and we put it in with their will. And then, so it's, it's to be sent to to the judge at that point.

Billie Tarascio (11:20):

Yeah. So I, I love that because let's just play the situation out. Let's let's pretend we've got a hypothetical, we've got a mom with a hundred percent custody. Dad's legal rights have been established, but he's a drug addict or he's in jail. He doesn't have any, any parenting time with the children. Mom dies, grandparents come in and they say, we want to take custody. What do the grandparents do? Well, they need to choose a jurisdiction. First, are you going to ask for third-party custody and family court or in probate court for a guardianship? And so we can help you figure out what's best. If you have stood in local Prentice, meaning you have been at like a parent to the children, then we can go to family court and ask that you be given emergency custody. We'll go and local apprentice. Yes. We can ask that you be given custody and you probably will be given custody at that time. But let's say dad comes in

Rilus Dana (12:15):

Very common though, right? That in local printers, you know, where there's, you know, mothers and fathers who aren't necessarily the biological mothers and fathers, but they're assumed that title.

Billie Tarascio (12:28):

Right. There are a lot of people who stand In Loco Parentis. It can be grandparents, it can be aunts, it can be friends. And once you, once you've established that role and you've stood In Loco Parentis, then you can ask for custody in family court. And that letter would be evidenced in a custody case as to the wishes of the mom. Who's now dead as to why her parents should have custody.

Rilus Dana (12:55):

Yeah. And then also I should say in our, will I named my parents, you know, who she wants it to be, and it's an evidence of who it should not be, you know, why it should not be the parent.

Billie Tarascio (13:05):

So when a parent names, a guardian in a will, let's say both parents are married, they name a guardian, they pass does the, will create an automatic guardianship

Rilus Dana (13:19):

Good question. So I have a lot of clients where, you know, their, all their family is out of the countr\So the people that they that they want as their guardians or are out of the country. So I have a lot of I've had a lot of first responder clients and what I love about my job is I, I get to interview everyone that I meet it, you know, I get to ask them about their job and see how it works. But in order to get a better answer to that question, you know, I you know, asked a lot of the first responders, you know, like, you know, what would you do? So in California. So my son's in California, in Nevada, and it's kind of nice to compare the laws. Although sometimes I get fuzzy on what state is exactly which, but California, they have a statute for a short term, guardian. The California law says you can name someone to serve as a short-term guardian. Arizona, we don't have that actual statute, but I've copied the same process. Okay. Yeah. So let's say I have people where, you know, if all their family members are out of the country, you know, I say, you know, you should think about a short-term guardian. You know, some of them, they can go to immediately, you know, before the other people can either get here, if that's what you want, or if they can arrange for them to go, you know, to the other country, because sometimes that's what their wish is.

Billie Tarascio (14:52):

Are married, they're here in Arizona, they both die in a car crash, or we play out frozen and they, they, their, their boat sinks. And on analysis, parents have written down that their parents are going to be guardians. Can those grandparents immediately take custody of Anna and Elsa and do whatever they need to do to take care of them.

Rilus Dana (15:17):

Here's what I've heard from the first responders, because the law left me. It didn't have a complete way, you know, where we could do it. But from what I've been told by the first responders is that they're usually looking for a family member. So it's kind of the last resort to put them in the state system, you know, so they're looking like you know, looking for a family member or they said, you know, I showed them my short term guardian kind of explained, you know, how it works in California. And basically what they told me is that if there's something that's official, you know, what the instructions are, they would follow that.

Billie Tarascio (15:53):

Okay. So the grandparents probably need to file some documents in probate court, but until they do, they can use the will probably to do what they need to do.

Rilus Dana (16:02):

Right. That's my answer. Probably use the, will, you know, the name of the the guardians, you know, that shows that they're the guardians. And then if it's a situation where, you know, your real guardians are out of the country or out of state, you can consider a short term, you know, who, you know, a neighbor or someone local.

Billie Tarascio (16:23):

And do you practice in probate court as well?

Rilus Dana (16:27):

Yeah, so we do some like litigated cases. So I've been doing more of those lately.

Billie Tarascio (16:32):

So for minor guardianships, I wonder often if somebody is better off in probate court with a guardianship or with custody from family court, do you have any ideas on that?

Rilus Dana (16:45):

Guardianship? So, and I, I didn't realize the difference. Yeah. You got me thinking about that question as far as if family law's easier. Now, sometimes it'll come up where if the beneficiary of an estate as a minor, we have to get a guardian appointed so that they can collect their interests of the estate. But I don't do that work. I have someone else do it. And I think they usually do it through the probate court. But I yeah, I wonder that, I wonder if that is easier through the family law court.

Billie Tarascio (17:24):

Right. And then, and then of course you have the ability to adopt and if you adopt, then you're in juvenile court. Wow. Yeah. And the juvenile court has jurisdiction over all the terminations and all the adoptions.

Rilus Dana (17:39):

But isn't that really hard to adopt, or it takes time to get you into that type of court, or is that an option for grandparents or a guardian?

Billie Tarascio (17:47):

What I would, I would think, you know, if both parents are, have died and the will is in place and gives guardianship to the grandparents and the grandparents want to adopt, I would first probably get guardianship get a temporary guardianship through probate court and then initiate adoption proceedings in juvenile court.

Rilus Dana (18:05):

Yeah. So adoption, I know how it affects inheritance, but what, what would be the other advantages of adoption, I guess you I'm trying to think if they had money for that child, if they would still have a conservator, you know, someone that manages the money on their behalf. I don't think an adoption, I don't know if an adoption would change that if they're adopted as a parent, that maybe you could end the guardianship, so you don't have to check in every year, right.

Billie Tarascio (18:38):

The guardianship would be done and you would be permanent parents, so guardianships can be terminated or they can be temporary. And you would, you will be an orphan without any parents. And if you, if you're adopted, then you're, you have all of the legal rights of parents.

Rilus Dana (18:54):

Yeah. So that could be some reasons why the adoption might be a way to go. I have a case. I don't remember if I do. They all get mixed together. I don't know if it got settled or not, but I think we're doing one where there's a, there's a minor beneficiary. And we're going to ask the court, we're going to ask the probate court, if they'll put their share into a trust, instead of giving it to them immediately or really, instead of doing a guardianship would be the other way. So yeah, I've heard of, I've heard of people doing it. I've just never personally done it.

Billie Tarascio (19:35):

I think what this conversation really tells me is that planning is probably even more important when you're divorced than maybe even when you're together, because there's a lot of room for conflict when you've got, you know, two sets of family that are no longer aligned. So now you've got competing grandparents, you've got competing interests, you've got both sides of the family that want to make sure that they protect their time with their children and having some sort of documents in place to determine what's going to happen is really important.

Rilus Dana (20:12):

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So that's why I show people how they can do this. I call it an insurance policy, like right away, just do something so they can sleep at night. So not stressing over it. Yeah. We can look deeper in those other things, but, but you know, some people they don't know at what point they should see the estate planning attorney. Right. You know, some people, they they want to wait until the divorce is all, all the way finalized. I would say it's a good idea that you're your family law attorney knows about the estate planning attorney, right? And that you have a good estate planning attorney. Who's not going to move around assets. You know, they know you, they have a general understanding of the family law process, but I think it's a good idea to see an estate attorney right. In the beginning, you know, to, to get your, your new plan set up, you can't fund it yet. You can't put assets into it, but at least when you when the divorce is complete and you're awarded, you know, your property, you have a place to put it.

Billie Tarascio (21:19):

Yeah. Would a pour-over will, you know, put those assets immediately into the trunk.

Rilus Dana (21:25):

No. Upon your death, it's a probate. So, you know so the will, if you just ride it out, that just says where your stuff goes, but it would take a probate to transfer it. So you could do, you could write out the will right away, set up a trust with an attorney. So it's all, it's all ready to go. And then after the divorce is complete move assets in, I see a lot of family law attorneys get lazy, or I don't know what happens, but assets don't get moved. Right. They have you know, the divorce decree. I don't know how many times I've seen that. You know, here's, I got divorced 30 years ago, but we never transferred it. It's still titled and, and their name.

Billie Tarascio (22:13):

Right. You know, it's, it's an interesting point you bring up. So we have a closing meeting after every divorce decree with every client and we go over, 'Hey, you're not done. "Here's What you have to do. Now, here are the changes you have to make." but many times people are so emotionally exhausted and financially tapped out. They don't really want to jump through hoops to either change their name back or change the title of assets. And so it can be, it can be really hard if people don't take the time to change the title of the assets and move the money out of the old trust, into the new trust, it can really create a problem. Right?

Rilus Dana (22:53):

Yeah. So that's why I recommend that they do it, you know, in the beginning. Yeah. Because yeah, you're going to be tired, but by the time the divorce is over. Is that, is that a requirement? And it highlights both, both sides have to be exhausted. People feel like they're getting ripped off and then you're there.

Billie Tarascio (23:15):

And so that is a fantastic transition to talking about you and your post divorce parenting, your, your modern divorce story. So tell us a little bit about that lists.

Rilus Dana (23:27):

Yeah. So I saw your email about your podcast. And I said you know, what are we talking about today? I'm on, I'm on that side as well. I can identify with the single parents and we're talking about Thanksgiving this weekend. And I said you're now we're at the point, you know, for better, for worse. So we don't really follow our set schedule. And it's, it's nice in a lot of ways because it's just like, you know, Hey, what's, you know, whatever's best for the kids. I've been divorced. I dunno, it's been like seven or so years, six, seven. It's been a while. And I would say, I wish we were at that place sooner, but you can't really force it. Right. It's kinda like I would say kind of the risk of not following the schedule is then you, you don't have a schedule to protect you. Right. You know, if you're, if we're when we were following the schedule with all the holidays and everything, it was clear, like who's doing what or at least you have the schedule and people would, you know, try to argue it or whatever, but when it goes out the window, it's I don't know, easier in some ways, but it's a, it's a risk. And the other way, I'll, I'll say,

Billie Tarascio (24:45):

Well, you can always fall back on the court order. Always, even if you decide not to follow it, even if the two of you haven't been following it for for years, if you say, Hey, you know, I haven't seen the kids for Thanksgiving in three years. It's my year. I want to have them. You can always do that. But I think practically it gets pretty hard. Right?

Rilus Dana (25:07):

Yeah. So yeah, you can always fall back on it, but if what you're giving up and then later, if what you're asking for is not according to the agreement, there's no guarantees. So I'll do this for you that time. Right.

Billie Tarascio (25:22):

How did you transition from we follow the parenting plan to, we are going to parent in a more relaxed way or in a different way from the parenting plan?

Rilus Dana (25:33):

I guess I would say this not following the traditional holidays more and like, I just look, I you know, like if I don't want to do the family stuff, I'm like, Hey, you know, I'll, I'll ask my my kid's mom, like, Hey, do you want to go do the, you know, the family activities, it's cool. If you want to take them to all those. Cause you'll, I don't really want to do it. It's kind of vice versa. Just you know, what's best for the kids type of a thing is the goal, hopefully.

Billie Tarascio (26:04):

So how often do the two of you have to discuss what your schedule is going to be?

Rilus Dana (26:12):

Really, I would just say so my, my schedule, I have a, every other weekends and then a night a week. So really just when it comes down to when, when my weekend falls on a holiday schedule or just holidays. Yeah. So, so this is my weekend coming up. It's my scheduled weekend, but it's a holiday weekend and I don't even remember who gets, you know, Thanksgiving as, as their holiday this year. And I think our plan splits it is what it does kind of like the first of it and the second part of it. So I'll just figure it out with her, like, you know, what, what she wants to do and this, I guess, just be flexible, I guess, you know, in order to get rid of the plan in my mind, I just have to be more flexible when I throw out control what it is. It's like, all right. If I, if I go this way, you know, I, I know that I can't I don't have the plan to protect me. You know, I'm going to ask Ashley, you know, right in there. Yeah.

Billie Tarascio (27:16):

Yeah. And so what are the advantages to you and to your kids? Specifically of not following the plan?

Rilus Dana (27:26):

I think we were just going to do more of what we want. Right. We're not, we're not tied to the plan. We're not planning around you know, what it says, it's you know, Hey, I want to go on vacation this time, you know, can I take the kids, you know, this time?

Billie Tarascio (27:41):

Right. And you just, you'd never have conflicts.

Rilus Dana (27:45):

It's been, you know, knock on wood, you know, for, for the most part. I guess, you know, I don't really do a whole lot, like I said, the traditional family activities, that was a lot of the conflicts, you know, when you're splitting holidays, you know, things fall like a prime time, you know, like, you know, where are you going to be Christmas morning or your evening, you know, by, I guess, send us more flexible of I'm not as concerned about that and I'm not trying to take them to you know, like my, my parents and my brothers, you know, like take them to a bunch of different places. So, yeah. Yeah. And like last weekend, it wasn't my weekend, but you know, my kids called me and they asked if I wanted to take them to the skate park. And that's usually a pretty easy answer for me. I don't, I like going to the skate park at the skate park. Yeah. So what's your favorite skate park? We live close to, I live right in between two really good ones. The Tempe one, and then the Scottsdale one at Scottsdale.

Billie Tarascio (28:52):

Nice. Well, that must be fun for them.

Rilus Dana (28:55):

Yeah. It's fun for them. And it's fun for me to live my glory days. You know, we used to roller blade at the wedge way back in the day. Like when I was there before there was a skate park. Yeah.

Billie Tarascio (29:06):

Do you, do you skateboard with them or rollerblade?

Rilus Dana (29:08):

No, I don't. I just watch now. I I, I broke too many bones, like in my mind, I think I'm 18. So my body's like, no, you sit behind a desk.

Billie Tarascio (29:21):

You're not, you're not 18. Okay.

Rilus Dana (29:23):

I broke my femur. I gave it up, but not before I broke my ankle. Last time I showed up. Like, but after about the third thing, I was like, okay, let's watch.

Billie Tarascio (29:33):

Yeah, absolutely. So most of the time we as divorce attorneys recommend, if you're going to change your parenting plan to get a stipulated agreement to the change of parenting plan. But what you're talking about is really a lot of little changes being flexible on an ongoing basis. And when that's the case, you don't really need to change your plan. You just need to continue communicating. And it sounds like you guys have really figured that out.

Rilus Dana (29:57):

Yeah. I would say it probably depends on the people a lot. Right. You know, like how your, how your ex partner works, you know, cause in some ways you're like more connected once you get divorced. You're dealing on certain issues, but you know, maybe I, I just know her personality, you know, she doesn't like the set plans as much, you know, so even when I had that, it was hard, you know, following it all the time. So, you know, may cause other people trouble, you know, if their partner is really dependent on the schedule, right. Then it's, it's going to be hard to to try to change it.

Billie Tarascio (30:38):

Well, Rilus, thank you so much for coming on today. How can people contact you if they need some estate planning

Rilus Dana (30:45):

For state planning, our website is Danalegalhelp.com. So that's the best way. So Arizona, California. Yeah. So if you're in the beginning, part of your divorce, we can talk about, you know, some, you know, the insurance policy you can do right away how you can get you know, your plan ready, and then we'll make sure at the end, you know, so when your, when your divorce is completed, you can get it all wrapped up. You're finished wrapping up your divorce by having a new place to put the assets.

Billie Tarascio (31:17):

And you can help people transfer those assets. Yep. Good. Good. Okay. One last question. This is something that I'm going to start doing with every single guest. What was the biggest thing that you learned from your divorce?

Rilus Dana (31:35):

The biggest thing I learned, I would say I learned a lot about myself. I learned I was an asshole.

Rilus Dana (31:47):

As you learn, but I guess the biggest thing I learned is how to be better myself. And and I think, you know, the kind of the further I got away from it, you know, I could see what were, you know, I guess problems in our relationship was maybe you know, were kind of different expectations, but I guess I learned more about myself as what I would say

Billie Tarascio (32:11):

Became more self-aware and saw yourself maybe a little differently. Yeah. That's good stuff. I think that, that happens to every, every single one of us as well. It should, if it doesn't, if we're not more self-aware after our divorce, we've missed an opportunity.

Rilus Dana (32:27):

Yeah. Because I've had people, I think it's, I don't get asked very often. They say, well, why don't you get, why did you get divorced? You know, like, you know, maybe six or seven years ago, I thought I could cite one or two things, but, but now I would say it like, you know, we're different people, you know, we, we grew up, we grew like we've kind of your goals in life changed. And we're just no longer compatible.

Billie Tarascio (32:54):

Right. Right. The reason is, is if you can say the reason in 10 seconds, I don't know that you've done enough processing. Okay.

Rilus Dana (33:05):

Yeah. Yeah. So that's what I would say. I've, I've learned with more time, you know, it's not really one reason it's kind of I just kind of that bigger thing, you know I guess as, as you change it and grow up sometimes, you know, goals are different and your is no longer aligned in life anymore.

Billie Tarascio (33:26):

Yeah. The sound bite rarely, rarely actually captures the complexity of relationships, which are complicated.

Rilus Dana (33:34):

Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Billie Tarascio (33:36):

It's good stuff. All right. Well, thank you so much. Rylance and we will put your contact information in the show notes so that people will know where they can find you. Well, thank you. And thanks for having me. Thank you. Bye bye.