Modern Divorce - The Do-Over For A Better You

Personality disorders that affect your divorce

December 17, 2020 Attorney Billie Tarascio Season 1
Modern Divorce - The Do-Over For A Better You
Personality disorders that affect your divorce
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, Kris Godinez, licensed professional counselor, unwraps the mysteries of the most common personality disorders that can affect your divorce and what you should do about it. Host Billie Tarascio, attorney with Modern Law in Mesa, AZ,  talks with Kris about all of the different types of problem ex's: drama queens (and kings), covert, overt, and communal narcissists, and the emotional dysregulation of borderline personality disorder.
Divorcing someone with any of these issues can mean big problems for the other party, but in this conversation you'll learn about how to deal with the big exit from a marriage and how to protect yourself.

You can find Kris at AhaCounselingAZ.com, and  Billie at MyModernLaw.com.

Billie Tarascio (00:04):

Hi there. This is Billie Tarascio with the modern divorce podcast. And today I am so pleased to have with us, Christine Godinez with aha counseling and today's subject is going to be, I think, one of, one of the best ones. And we're going to talk about personality disorders. So Christine, thank you so much for joining me.

Kris Godinez (00:27):

You're so welcome. Thank you for asking me. Yeah,

Billie Tarascio (00:30):

Absolutely. So before we dive into personality disorders can you tell our listeners a little bit about you?

Kris Godinez (00:39):

Okay. So I'm a licensed professional counselor. I've been doing this since 2006, went into private practice in 2009. And once I got into private practice, I started working with domestic violence targets and realized that there was not enough education on personality disorders because all abusers have got a personality disorder of some sort. And so I started educating myself on that and now I teach other people what they are. I work with lawyers, I work with judges, you know, et cetera, so,

Billie Tarascio (01:10):

Awesome. Awesome. it seems like personality disorders are more and more common. Is that, is that true?

Kris Godinez (01:21):

So I think they've always been around, but remember our society has got a huge stigma about mental health. And so we never talked about it. How, how recently has it been? It's only been in the last, maybe 30, maybe 40 years that we even really started acknowledging domestic violence. So we never really talked about it. I think it's always been around. I just don't think it's ever been really as talked about as it is now,

Billie Tarascio (01:47):

Because it really does seem like almost everybody. I talk to know somebody that they think has a personality disorder

Kris Godinez (01:58):

Dive into that, especially as a divorce attorney.

Billie Tarascio (02:02):

Absolutely. Absolutely. So let's start with what, what is, what is a personality disorder?

Kris Godinez (02:08):

Okay. So a personality disorder is not like it's not like depression or anxiety. It can be treated with meds. This is a series of behaviors that are maladaptive that are harmful, hurtful, et cetera. There are three different types of personality disorders. You've got your type, a, your type B and your type C. So the cluster, a cluster B cluster C your personality disorder, people that you will find in divorce cases are all going to be in the cluster B. So the cluster a is schizotypal Schizoaffective. So those are offshoots of schizophrenia. They have the behaviors of schizophrenia, but they're not completely schizophrenia. The cluster B's are going to be your narcissist, which is usually what you will find in the high conflict divorce cases. You will find a borderline disorder now, again, everything's on a spectrum, so you can have traits of strong traits of, and then full-blown only takes five of the nine criteria to be full bond.

Kris Godinez (03:12):

So when you're diagnosing it, you know, if you're going down the checklist going, Oh, sense of entitlement, Oh. Using other people to get their own gains. Oh, you know, and you're like clicking things off and they meet more than five or more. Then, you know, you're dealing with a narcissist anyway. So there's narcissism borderline histrionics. So that's like a drama queen drama King. Everything's very, very, very dramatic. I said, no idea. That was a personality disorder is a personality disorder. So those are the ones that go for the high drama time. Everything's gotta be like a grand Shakespearian kind of thing. There's never just calmly getting your copy. It's like, no verily. I say unto you, I'm getting my copy. You know, they're just like, okay. And what's the name for that? That's histrionic personality disorder, histrionic. Okay. Here's the thing. Borderline personality disorder.

Kris Godinez (04:07):

When it becomes malignant now, malignant, meaning that they have slid into the full-blown and they enjoy the drama. They enjoy hurting people. They enjoy, those are the dangerous ones. Does that make sense? So like I said, everything's on a spectrum and there's different subtypes. So it gets really confusing if you're not a professional in this area. So narcissism has got overt, which is like the over the top. You'll look at me, look at me. I'm so fabulous telling me how fabulous I am. That's over covert are the ones who are the constant victims. Never. Right. You never cool. You never, you know, I'm on doing all this for you. You never do anything for me. And it's always about them. Somehow. Those are the ones that usually ruined by the way, Thanksgivings and Christmases, since we're sliding into that time of year. Yeah.

Kris Godinez (04:57):

So those were the covert ones. Cause they play the victim all the time. It's always about now, then you've got the communal narcissists that are the cult leaders. So those are like the Jim Jones's the David Koresh's those type of people that are like, I am the savior, come to me. I will save you. I am the way in the light. That kind of thing. Yeah. Oh. And then with borderline, you've got the the quiet borderlines. Now the quiet borderlines are on the lower end of the spectrum. I will work with them all day long because they harm themselves. They are the ones who usually have intense emotions, intense feelings. And they are the ones that cut. Those are the cutters, you know, because they don't know how to handle emotions. Emotional dysregulation is the, is the hallmark of borderline personality disorder. So the lower end of the spectrum is cutters, which is the quiet.

Kris Godinez (05:46):

Then you move into the hermits, which kind of correlates with the covert narcissism. So they're their victims. They do the whole victim thing to move up the, up the row to probably full-blown. And then you've got the queen, which is the control freak. You of alien has to control everything. And then you get to the worst one, which correlates with the dark triad of the narcissist, which is the witch. And the witch is a sadist. She enjoys inflicting pain. She enjoys she, or he, I don't mean to say she, because it can be he's too. He or she enjoys inflicting pain. They're they're control freaks. They're, they're, they're evil. They're fricking evil because they like what they like the pain and suffering that they inflict. And in a divorce case, it's usually the, the witches that will keep the divorce case going and going and going and file motion after motion, after motion after motion, because they would rather have a screwed up dysfunctional connection to somebody than no connection at all. And a dark triad in a narcissist is it's narcissism, psychopath, otherwise antisocial personality disorder now. And Makaveli aneurysm control-freak. These are the ones that end up being stalkers. These are the ones that cannot let go, will not let go end up getting protections, orders of protections against them. And then we'll fight the order of protection. Even though they blatantly done everything that the opposing person has said. Yeah. Does that answer the question? Did I go a little too in depth on that?

Billie Tarascio (07:18):

Oh, I have so many follow-up questions. I just want to know more. So one question I've got is what is the difference between bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder?

Kris Godinez (07:30):

Okay. So bipolar is a brain chemistry issue. So what happens is, is in the brain there's senders and receivers and serotonin dopamine, Nora, epinephrin all the feel-good chemicals. So what happens in bipolar disorder is that the brain is unable to regulate the proper amount of the feel-good chemicals. So in a healthy brain, we have a great meal or we have great sex and the brain just goes, okay, this feels great. And it releases all the endorphins. Dope means that their tone is, but then the receivers will suck it back up after a certain amount of time. And that kind of euphoria goes away and you're back to quote unquote normal. What happens in a bipolar brain though, is that the cinders go pump all of the feel-good chemicals in the receivers are not sucking it back up. So the brain is bathed in all of these amazing feel, good chemicals.

Kris Godinez (08:23):

That's when you go into the manic, you've got all of the, all of the fuel, the chemicals you feel like you're invincible, you feel fantastic. It's like a runner's high on steroids is the best way I can describe it. Or other people would describe it as being on meth, which never done meth. Couldn't tell ya. So, but, but that kind of euphoric I'm invincible, I'm amazing, et cetera. But then what happens is all of a sudden, the receivers will suck up all of the feel-good chemicals. Like all of them, it will take all of the Nora, epinephrin all the serotonin, all the, all the dopamine and then boom, you hit that depression. And then you just, you can't get out of bed. You don't feel like eating. You don't feel like dressing and you you oops, somebody at the door, sorry, you, you don't feel like doing anything.

Kris Godinez (09:13):

So that's, you know, that's the bipolar. And then with that, you can get psychotic thinking. So because of the lack of right, proper chemicals, people will do things like I'm going to go to LA and I'm going to become the next big singer. Even though they can't sing, they can't carry a tune in a bucket, you know, or they'll go to Vegas and they'll blow literally $70,000 on their bank. It's gambling thinking that they're going to hit the next jackpot. I mean, I've seen them do that as well. And the danger for board or for bipolar is, is that they don't commit suicide when they're depressed. They commit suicide when they're up in their manic phase because they have the energy to do so.

Billie Tarascio (09:54):

Wow. Yeah.

Kris Godinez (09:55):

So that's why, if you know somebody who's got borderline and it's not treated for the love of God, get them into treatment, they have to get on mood stabilizers have to, because with the mood stabilizers, do you use instead of up, down, up, down, up, down, which is what they're doing. And here's the other thing. If you allow your brain to continue to do the up-down up-down, up-down it actually causes brain damage. These senders and receivers start getting damaged because they're not functioning properly. So what the mood stabilizer does is it takes it from weekend to kind of like that. I mean, you're still gonna have variations in mood, but it's not going to be the ridiculous up in the ridiculous down and keeps the brain senders and receivers from harming themselves.

Billie Tarascio (10:36):

Okay. So when you say that borderline is emotional dysregulation, is that unrelated to the chemicals? Yes.

Kris Godinez (10:46):

So borderline personality disorder is generally based in trauma. So if you look at somebody who has borderline personality disorder, and if you can catch them early enough, when they're at like maybe the quiet type that harms themselves or the hermit type, which does the whole poor me, poor me, poor me thing. You can work with them if you address the trauma that they've been through. So the borderline behaviors are a fear of abandonment. That is their core thing. They are terrified of being abandoned. They do bizarre behavior in order not to be abandoned. So they're the ones who often do the suicidal ideation or the suicidal gestures. You know, I'll kill myself. If you leave me, I'll all harm myself. If you walk out on me, you know, that kind of thing. So you can help them if they're at the lower end of the spectrum. But like I said, once they go full blown, they like it. They enjoy it. They're enjoying because for them it's a power thing because they were powerless when they were little, when they got traumatized. And once they've slid into that malignant kind of part, now they feel powerful because they create so much trauma and chaos in other people's lives. Does that make sense?

Billie Tarascio (11:56):

It does. It does. So let's focus on narcissism because I feel like we could talk about each of these for an hour each.

Kris Godinez (12:06):

Yes, we could.

Billie Tarascio (12:09):

Let's talk about narcissism and tell me what are these nine traits.

Kris Godinez (12:15):

Okay. So unfortunately I do not have my DSM-V in front of me. So hold on one second. Let's see if I can pull it up on my phone. Yes. Wasn't prepared for that. Hello? I apologize. Hi, Jackie

Speaker 3 (12:31):

Mayo clinic

Kris Godinez (12:34):

Narcissism, hang on. And you can look these up. This is the thing I love to teach people. You don't have to have the DSM-V DSM-V stands for diagnostic manual five and every 10 years or so. They updated, they add, they add diagnosises and they take them out and things like that. So let's look at the traits. Okay. Exaggerated sense of self importance. They literally think that the world, the sun rises and sets on their. They really do like in a weird way. They have a sense of entitlement and require constant admiration. Oh, you're great. You're great. Tell me how great I am. Tell me how great I am. You're constantly needing to be told how great they are. They expect to be recognized as superior without any achievements that weren't that. So they will have absolutely no education whatsoever and start, you know, talking about something.

Kris Godinez (13:27):

They have no knowledge of which just shut up. You know what I'm saying? The no at all. No, at all. Yeah, absolutely. And they're the expert on literally everything they will never say. Oh, I don't know. So if somebody asks me a question, like if you ask me a question, I really don't know the answer and I don't have a way to give you the answer. I will say, you know what? I don't know. Let me go look that up and I'll get back to you. This will never do that. They will also never apologize. Apologies are not in their relative existence because that's taking personal responsibility. They will not take personal responsibility. What they'll do is a narcissistic apology, which is either, I'm sorry, but I'm sorry. You pointing the finger back out at the other person or they'll apologize, but then do the same behavior over and over again. Okay. So hold on. So now we're on the fourth one, exaggerating chief achievements and talents. Oh, well I got this, you know, huge thing from this university and they never either went to that university or they never got the award that they were talking about. That type of thing. They're preoccupied with fantasies about success, power brilliance, beauty, or the perfect mate. So these are the ones that insist on the supermodels or the, you know, the, the, the spouse has to have the six pack or do you see where I'm going with that?

Kris Godinez (14:44):

I would look my spouse to have a six. We not going to happen because we like lasagna image is very important to them and it has to be perfect. They are perfectionists. And here's the funny thing. They can make mistakes. Don't you ever point it out to them, but they can make mistakes. But if anybody around them makes a mistake, they are in trouble like nobody's business. They will just rub their nose in. You made a mistake, you did this. You, you it's the, you, you, you, guns is what I call it. So there's one finger pointing out, but there's three fingers pointing back at the person. So really no talking about themselves. Okay. Believes they are superior and can only associate with equally special people. So they want to hang out with the in class. They want to hang out with the pretty people.

Kris Godinez (15:32):

They want to hang out with politicians. They want to hang out with, do you see where I'm going with that? Okay. They monopolize conversations and they belittle or look down on people that they perceive as inferior. So if somebody does not look like a supermodel, if somebody does not have the power base or the, you know, whatever, they'll, they'll shun them. They'll, they'll be cruel to them because they're inferior. How dare they not be perfect? They expect special favors and unquestioning compliance with their expectations. If you do not ask how high, when they say jump, you will never hear the end of it. They will punish you for it. They will make you wrong. They will. Yeah. They're, they're terrible. They will take advantage of others to get what they want. They have an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and wants and feelings of others.

Kris Godinez (16:22):

So somebody could be sad in front of them and they won't care. Cause it's not about them. Like if it's about them, they'll join in on it. So emotions are not okay to a narcissist. The only emotions that are okay are the narcissist emotions. Here's the clue. They literally do not feel happiness. They have, they're missing that empathy. So you and I, if we're like, you know, if we're out on a walk and we see a dog limping down the canal, we're going to pick the dog up and take it to the vet and probably adopt it. You know what I'm saying? Whereas a narcissist would be like that. Doesn't concern me. I'm done. They have no empathy. They cannot feel, they do not feel. That's why they say the most horrible things. They do the most horrible things. And then they can't understand why their spouse is sitting there, sobbing in front of them.

Kris Godinez (17:10):

So there's that be in because they are incredibly envious of others and they think that other people will hope you have a puppy dog. They think that other people are envious of them. So they're always like, you know, they're like, you know, everybody wants what I have. I'm the greatest thing. You know, people are jealous of me, blah, blah. You know, just BSPs yeah. What they're doing is they're stroking their own ego. They behave in arrogant or haughty manners and they come across as conceited, boastful, or pretentious. They insist on having the best of the best of the best of the best. They will bankrupt the family in order to buy the Lexus, the, the rolls Royce, the, the newest, the best, the best they will buy these huge mansions and then go underwater because it's really, it's all about an image for them. Right. So it looks pretty on the outside, but it's fricking rotten to the core. Right. So yeah, those that's the traits of the narcissist. Okay.

Billie Tarascio (18:07):

Okay. So those are, do narcissists tend to be abusers?

Kris Godinez (18:14):

Oh yes, absolutely. They are the worst offenders. Those are the dark triads that I talked about. Even if you're not a dark triad, they are so arrogant. Like I said, they'll bankrupt. The family they'll use the kids college fund to go buy a motorcycle or, you know, a new leather jacket or, you know, whatever. And they, they they're terrified of death. So when you're an older nurse assist is called a collapsed narcissist. So when nurses are young, they can get narcissistic, supply somebody to stroke their ego, somebody to make them feel good. When they get older, people are done with them. They're done with their BS. They're done with their abuse. They're done with their manipulation. They're done with their everything. So they're called collapsed narcissists, which means they're desperate for somebody to stroke their ego. So these are the ones who were like 70, 80 years old.

Kris Godinez (19:08):

They look in the mirror, they see themselves as 17, not 70 or 80, they will go dye their hair. They will be working out at the newest gym that all the young kids are going to do. They will dress inappropriate to their age and or body type. You know, the rest of us when we get old, I'm 55. I know I'm not 17. My hip tells me on a daily basis, but it's like, I'm not going to be out there wearing skimpy skimpy stuff. Cause I don't have the body type for that. Please see these statement about lasagna earlier. But you know, it's like you dress appropriately. They don't, they don't, they dress way too young. They're trying to show off their body. They think that they're in this great shape. They're not, they're terrified to death and they will do anything they can to avoid it. So yeah, they deny it.

Billie Tarascio (19:55):

One of the things that I'm thinking about is for people going through divorce, many of them are experiencing many of the things you're talking about, crazy highs and lows, people who maybe in the past didn't experience those things do at that point, are we experiencing a personality disorder or what's happening?

Kris Godinez (20:19):

So what you got to understand is the way that abusers work, when they're a personality disorder, they start off with the love bombing phase. So in the love bonding phase, did you watch frozen? Did you see frozen? Of course, just checking. So you remember Prince princess, Ana, Ana and Hans who comes in and everybody thinks, Oh, he's the hero. So what he was doing was love bombing on it. So he walked in, he said, Oh, you like pizza? I like pizza. You like to ice skate. I like to ice skate. You like moose? I like moose. You know? So it was like that he was mirroring everything that Ana liked. And so Ana was like, I found Prince charming. He's he's just like me. And he has the same core values and he has extinct. So a narcissist or borderline will walk in and say that they are exactly like you, that they have the same core values, the same everything.

Kris Godinez (21:10):

But then once they get their hooks into their target of abuse, their mask slips and the real them starts coming out. And that leaves the target of abuse. Absolutely devastating because here was this person that was literally wonderful, you know, Prince or princess charming either way because women can be abusers to make no mistake. So they come in and they Mir the person and it looks like they're, you know, the perfect match. And, Oh my gosh, this is my soulmate. And everything's great. Then the mask slips, and then they start, what's called the D value and discard phase. So what they do is they start de-valuing you. So everything that you thought that they loved about you, they will suddenly start criticize it. So let's say at first they were like, Oh, I love your hair. And your hair is so beautiful and this, that, and the other thing, next thing you know, God, you know, you got too much hair.

Kris Godinez (21:58):

You need to cut it. Oh, your hair is just so scraggling, you need to do this way. You need to die. Why are you always doing your hair like that? Dah, dah, dah. And that's just an example, you know, but they'll start attacking all of the core values that they said they stood for and they'll start making fun of you for it. So one of the key things I've heard them do is they will sit there and they will tell their target of abuse. Well, everybody lies. Everybody lies. You need to lie to cause everybody lies. So narcissists and abusers in general do one of two things that either turn their target of abuse into a mini version of them. And then they're happy because they're just as miserable as this person is. Does that make sense? So this person is now lying, cheating, stealing everything that the abuser does, because then that way they've got something over them.

Kris Godinez (22:40):

If they ever leave, it's going to be used against them. It is. Or what they do is they do the detail you discard, which is criticized, criticized, criticized. And pretty soon this person starts wilting and loses who they are. They no longer remember who they are. They could, I have people sit on my couch and I will go, what's your favorite food? And they'll look at me and their eyes get really big. And they're like, I don't know, because their personality who they are, their core values have been so eroded. And so taken down by the abuser and the abuser has told them what they like seriously. And there's no dissension. So here's the, here's how, you know, it's a personality disorder, healthy, normal people can disagree. Not everybody's gonna agree. We're not, you know, some people like chocolate, some people like vanilla and that's okay. But if a narcissist likes chocolate and the target of abuse does not like chocolate also, Y Y Y no, you need to like chocolate. You need to like, you need to think exactly the way I do. You need to. And that's why that person starts losing who they are. And can't remember what food they like, because they have to like everything the abuser does. Did I answer the question? I kind of went off on that one.

Billie Tarascio (23:47):

Well, my question was I see a lot of people who I would consider very normal who have just exited a marriage or been left mostly it's the people who leave, who are experiencing a ton of volatility and emotions. Yeah.

Kris Godinez (24:06):

The target of abuses, the person who leaves. So, so I, so usually, so here's the thing in abuse. If the abuser leaves, they're fine with it, they don't care. They really cause they're onto their next, their next target. They're looking for their new supply. These are the ones that go hunting for the new sugar daddy or the new sugar mama or whatever. If the abuser gets left, they're all over the place. They're. They're sad. They're this they're that. But they're and sad and everything for themselves, not for the kids that they could get two rats as is for the kids. They will use the children as pawns and they will use the kids against the opposing person. So if somebody is having all sorts of emotions, it could be that they're abusive, or it could be that they're going through the whole shock of the discard, because it literally will come out of left field.

Kris Godinez (25:05):

It's like, you'll think everything's fine until they start doing the de-value discard. And then you're trying to get back to the love bombing phase. So this is called trauma bonding. This is called, this is Stockholm syndrome. This is exactly what happened installments. So in Stockholm syndrome, there was a bank in Sweden. It was taken over by bank robbers. It only took one week. So they held hostages for one week. At the end of the week, when the police were finally able to get in there and rescue them, the hostages surrounded the hostage takers and said, no, no, they're our friends. You can't hurt them. That's trauma bonding because what the hostage takers did is hold a gun to their head. I'm going to kill you. I'm not going to kill you now. I'm just kidding. No, I'm going to kill you now. I'm not going to kill you. I'm just kidding. They did that for an entire week, day on day off. And they wouldn't allow them to sleep. So this, again, I hate to say this, but if you read any books by any pow, this is exactly what happens to POW's. They sleep deprive them because it makes them more malleable. They threatened to kill them because it trauma bonds you to your captor. These are all psychological tortures, basically.

Billie Tarascio (26:13):

Wow.

Kris Godinez (26:15):

So when the abuser does leave, it leaves the target of abuse, absolutely decimated. They don't know who they are. They, they thought they loved this person. This is not the person they married. This is not the person that got involved with this person that they used to love has been damning them, putting them down smear campaign like nobody's business. As soon as the divorce starts, the abuser will go to every single family member, every single friend, occasionally to the employers and try to smear the target of abuse. So whoever's doing the smearing. That's your abuser.

Billie Tarascio (26:49):

I like that. I like that. There's a quick hack because you know, what usually happens is, is many times both spouses are accusing the other of being a narcissist, because

Kris Godinez (27:03):

It's a new release, a new a buzzword now, right? And this is what you got to tell your clients, unless you've got your, your licensed professional counseling license, or you're a psychiatrist, or you're a psychologist do not diagnose your spouse. It's going to make you look stupid in court. Number one, cause I mean, I've seen judges do this. There'll be like, I'm sorry. Do you have a degree? Where do you get this diagnosis from? And that's why you always want to go, let's stick with the behaviors. You want to talk about the behaviors, the person isolated me. Wouldn't let me talk to my family and friends, the person put me down constantly verbal abuse. The person turned the kids against me, parental alienation. You know, it used to be the parental alienation. They said that it was women was doing it to men. But I see, you know, men doing it to women too. I mean, it's, it's like I keep saying there is no, nobody has the corner market on abuse. I'm sorry. You want to stick with the behaviors. So I strongly recommend that you stick with the behaviors. You talk about the behaviors you don't diagnose. The only time that there's going to be a diagnosis is if you asked for a psych about, for the whole family, when there's custody involved, you know, and you let the professional diagnosis.

Billie Tarascio (28:16):

So what can someone do if they are going through a divorce? And they're divorcing a narcissist and the narcissist is relentless. How can they protect themselves? Both emotionally and financially and from the enormous legal bills that can happen.

Kris Godinez (28:34):

Okay. So here's the deal. Usually by the time it comes to a court case to divorce, the damage has already been done because nurses like to play the end game and they have to win at all costs. And I do mean at all costs, they don't care what it does to the kid. They don't care what it does to the ex. They don't care what it does to them financially. They just need to win. They don't, they will spend their last dime, putting your kids through college to win, which is great for the attorneys, but it's not good for anybody else. So when I'm helping somebody leave an abuser, the biggest mistake that people make is that they have been trained through trauma bonding to tell the abuser, everything you have got to shut the bleep up, seriously, stop over sharing. So for example, you work with somebody and they're ready to go.

Kris Godinez (29:30):

They've got the attorney. They're just about out the door. They've saved up their money. Then the abuser will do something like a love bombing kind of thing. They'll come back and they'll love them. Oh baby, baby. Don't leave me. I love you. Cause they'll say I'm divorcing you, which never do that. Never if you're leaving an abuser, the best thing you have on your side is surprise. So you fricking Leave while they're at work. You get the hell out, you get all your personal papers together, your birth certificate, your passport, your, you know, whatever you need for you and the kids. You have a separate bank account and you just have them served out of the blue. That's the best way to do it. Because if you tell them I'm going to divorce you, these guys have like to do little sock puppets. These guys will come back and be like, Oh baby, I love you.

Kris Godinez (30:12):

It'll be different this time. Oh no. This time I'm going to go to couples counseling. Here's a newsflash guys, never, ever on this or any other planet earth go to couples, counseling with an abuser. Why? Because it's dangerous. These guys will take whatever you've said in all honesty in couples counseling. And they will twist it and they'll make it about you. You're the problem. You did this. How dare you doubt it. And they'll punish you and it's dangerous because then you really lose your sense of self there's no safety because this person is not honoring what you said in couples, counseling, big surprises. But do you see where I'm going with that? So as soon as somebody, I mean, I've had couples come and sit on my couch and they didn't disclose that there was abuse going on. And as soon as we get into the session, Oh yeah, he hits me.

Kris Godinez (30:58):

He does that. Okay. We're done. We're done. I'm not seeing you as a couple. I'll see you each individually, but I will not see you as a couple because I'm not playing that game people. And here's the deal. Narcissist will never stay with counseling. If there's a good enough counselor that can see that they are a narcissist. Because as soon as the NAR, as soon as the counselor goes, and what is your part in this, Mr. Or Mrs. Narcissist, they go screw you you're incompetent. You don't know what you're doing, blah, blah, blah. And they store now. So I'm sorry. Did I answer the question? Get off on a tangent again?

Billie Tarascio (31:32):

You did. This has been fantastic. So what I heard you say was the best thing you can do if you're leaving a narcissist is, do not tell him or her yes. Plan plan plan. Yes. And just do it. Now, the process, the divorce process can take a long time. Are you saying

Kris Godinez (31:53):

Here's the things guys. I worked with a woman who left her abuser. 12 years later, he was still dragging her back into court because they had a baby together. So for 18 years, this is going to drag this woman back into court every year or every two years or however long, the judge will let him. And this is the problem is that our, our judicial system does not have training in abuse. And what they don't understand is that narcissism borderlines will use the judicial system to continue to abuse the target of abuse. And if the judge is disordered themselves, which let's face it, there's a lot of narcissists sitting on narcissists that are attorneys, you and I have both seen. And we're just like, Oh, hail now. So, you know, it's, there's no training in this. And so when the narcissist starts doing its thing and you've got a narcissistic judge, they recognize themselves in the narcissist and they will join in mobbing abuse.

Kris Godinez (32:57):

That makes sense. Yes, basically. What is financially, if you think you're going to leave a narcissist, you have to save up as much money as you can go to the food bank to get your groceries. If they have you on, this is one thing they do. They place their spouse on a quote unquote allowance, and they don't allow them access to the family money. Now the spouse may be working and all that her money or his money is going into the family account, but they won't allow them access to it. So they'll limit their access. So you've got to save up as much money as you possibly can get a good attorney that understands high conflict divorce. Cause it's going to be a high conflict divorce. If there are children involved, this is going to be hugely expensive. Why you're going to have to hire an psychology a psychological eval.

Kris Godinez (33:48):

You'll have, you're going to have to hire a psychiatrist or a psychologist to do a psychological eval on the entire family so that the judge gets a good picture of what's going on. Does that make sense? Expensive. Those are like three or $4,000 right there. You know what I'm saying? Internees fees, which can be anywhere from a retainer of five to $10,000. And you're going to have this narcissist that has all the money that might have mommy and daddy paying for it. I've seen that happen too. And they're going to keep dragging it out as long as they can. They want to hurt you. They want to financially bankrupt you. They want to morally bankrupt. You. They want to kill your soul. Basically. Here's the deal. They want you dead. They want you debt. They do. So what I've seen them do is they get the person to the point where they commit suicide. I've seen targets of abuse, do that. And the narcissist will sit there and go hall. Look what I made them do. Can you say crazy? That's crazy. Or while they're in the relationship with the narcissist, let's say the spouse has got diabetes, right? The narcissist will start shoving alcohol and candy and this and that carbs trying to kill them. I don't know about you, but if my spouse came home and said, Hey, I've got diabetes, I'd be like, Hey, we're getting a nutritionist lasagna. No one was on yet. Is there anything

Billie Tarascio (35:15):

That works to influence a narcissist?

Kris Godinez (35:21):

They think they know better than everybody. They will. Oh, here's the beautiful thing. You'll love this one. They usually represent themselves in court. Whichever you choose that's every attorney's dream. Cause it's just like, I cannot wait to rake you over the coals. Yeah. There's some arrogant. They'll represent themselves in court. And they'll think that, that, especially if you're dealing with a Melinda borderline court to them is grand theater. So they think that that is their place to push how horrible the spouses and how it's all the spouse's fault. And they use the court as grand theater, not understanding the judges don't Epping care, just get off their docket. That's all they care about really.

Billie Tarascio (36:05):

Right. And, and what, what happens most of the time is even with someone who's a narcissist or you know, severely messed up psychologically, even then judges are still ordering equal parenting time. If there isn't physical abuse.

Kris Godinez (36:23):

Yes. And the reason why. Okay. So in order, at least in Arizona, I don't know about other States, but at least in Arizona, unless there is physical abuse or neglect going on DCS will not remove the child. So the abuser could be sitting there verbally, just dissertating the child and they won't care. They won't do anything again. How much education is there in the legal system, in the state system on abuse? There's not, there's not very low to give less than 50 50, because, because you have to prove that there's physical abuse or neglect going on. But what they don't understand is that verbal abuse is worse almost. I think worse than physical abuse, because the bruises will heal. Right. And you can be like, okay, that person was really screwed up, that they were hitting me and this, that, and the other thing. But when you have a parent that is literally beating the crap out of their kid, and while they're beating up, I love you. This isn't really happening. They say that this isn't really happening. You're remembering this wrong. I'm not hitting you. I'm not, they do that. Wow. You say how screwed up that kid's going to be? Cause they're going to equate love with pain. If it hurts. It ain't love.

Billie Tarascio (37:45):

Well, when, when we have that, when we have physical abuse, when we have addiction, when we have drug addicts, then we can usually get kids away. But when we have people who are just psychological tormentors, yeah. That can be really hard on the ex spouse and the children because there's no distance

Kris Godinez (38:09):

And the kids are having to go, what is it? Two, two, five, five, two or two, five, two to five.

Billie Tarascio (38:14):

Yeah. They either split the week up or they go week on, week off.

Kris Godinez (38:18):

And so when they're with the abuser, God, this drug, you know what? We could do this for another two or three hours. I swear to God when they're with the abuser, the abuser will pump the kids for information. Well, what's your mom or dad doing? Who are they seeing? Where, how I see they got a new car, I guess I don't need to give you guys child. Blahblahblahblahblah they'll send the kids. Oh, this is what me off. I love kids. I love children. Never had any of my own, but. I love children. And what these will do is they will make the kids, the mom or dad has bought them new clothes, new shoes, the whole thing they'll take the new clothes. Not allow them to wear them back to the other person's house. The one that I was telling you about the 12 years going in and out of court, the dad was sending the kid to school in clothes that were so small.

Kris Godinez (39:07):

It hurts to button it because the child had grown so much, but he refused to send any of the new clothes back over to the mom. Even though the mom bought, I mean, to me, it's just like, you are harming your own child to suit your ego. I just, I would love to see them slapped. I really would because it's like, I'm sorry, you're using a child to further your own ego agenda. And that to me is just evil. But yeah, they do things like that. And the court won't do anything. The court will not do anything. No,

Billie Tarascio (39:38):

They won't. I mean, that's a great example because there are those little injuries that happen again and again and again. And the only thing that parents can really do is, is figure out how to live with it and equip their children with tools to manage it. That's really the only thing they can do.

Kris Godinez (39:56):

Yup. Play therapy is great, but here's the problem. You get a narcissist. They don't want their kids in therapy. You know why? Because the kids are going to tell the truth. The kids are going to call out the dad or the mom for being abusers and all of the screwed up things that they're doing. And the abuser does not want that to come to light abuse survives in the dark. That's why they hate therapy and they'll keep the kid from going. So here's what they'll do. Let's say that the judge says, yes, I, you know, the kids need therapy. We're putting this or this, the lawyer does. We're putting this in the divorce decree. What the abuser will do is they will go find a therapist, quote, unquote, not licensed, which by the way, if anybody tries to get your kids to go to therapy with somebody that's not licensed, don't do it refuse.

Kris Godinez (40:40):

So they'll find somebody who is either a pastoral counselor, which means they're usually not licensed or they'll find somebody who's fresh out of school and doesn't know their hind in, from a hole in the ground and the maneuver and the abuser will manipulate them, manipulate, manipulate, manipulate. So you've gotta be very careful who you allow to do therapy with your children. They have to be licensed. Number one, they have to be trauma informed. Number two, their modality should be CBT or DBT. DBT works with personality disorders. CBT is talk therapy. It is one of the few modalities that is effective with all mental health issues. So because you're dealing with cognitive, you're dealing with mistaken thoughts, mistaken beliefs. So if somebody has got a great deal of anxiety, which kids usually do dealing with an abuser, you start working on. Okay, well, what was the thought? What were you thinking right before you had your panic attack? Right. Okay. Well, how can we change that? What, you know, how can you protect yourself? That kind of thing. Does that make sense?

Billie Tarascio (41:40):

That was close. And I think we, I really, I think we're going to have to schedule another time for you to come on because I want to talk about cognitive behavioral therapy and dialectical behavior therapy and how it can help both parents and kids. But we don't have any more time today. I want to know how can people find you if they, if they need a therapist?

Kris Godinez (42:02):

Okay. I am on psychology today. So you're just going to go to psychology today and look up AhacounselingAZ.com Or Kris Godinez. I also have a weekly talk show that is on this very topic. So that's on YouTube. It's called, hold on. It's called. D to talk with Kris Godinez. So it's every Sunday at noon. And I deal with all of the different things that happen with personality disorders. So on Sunday, which is tomorrow, I'm going to be talking about how to stay safe in the holidays, how I deal with it. If you've got family members that are just cuckoo for cocoa puffs, what are you going to do?

Billie Tarascio (42:34):

Yeah. Wonderful. Wonderful. And I will have all of your contact information in the show notes. Thank you so much and enjoy the rest of your weekend. Thanks for having me.