Modern Divorce - The Do-Over For A Better You

Why Men Need a Divorce Coach

June 30, 2022 Attorney Billie Tarascio Season 4 Episode 10
Modern Divorce - The Do-Over For A Better You
Why Men Need a Divorce Coach
Show Notes Transcript

New Jersey Divorce attorney John Nachlinger saw a lot of his male clients getting run over in divorce because they didn't see it coming and didn't know how to talk about what they were going through.  Why? Because they grew up thinking it was best to keep their feelings to themselves. John saw it as a big problem that he could help solve.

In this episode of the Modern Divorce Podcast, attorney Billie Tarascio talks with John about why men suffer in divorce and how coaching has helped his male clients understand why divorce needs a game plan - just like a sports team - and a personal sidelines coach ready to help with the next "play." John's Divorce Shield coaching company trains men how to plan for divorce so they can manage both emotional and financial fallout.


Billie Tarascio: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Modern Divorce podcast. I am really looking forward to today because as I was talking to our guest about many times it's it's women who are more prepared for the Divorce who are filing for Divorce, who are consuming the content related to Divorce, and they tend to be just a little bit more prepared in general than men. And so today's guest is a Divorce attorney and Divorce. Coach who specializes in [00:01:00] preparing and coaching men through Divorce. We've got a New Jersey Divorce attorney Divorce, coach, John Nachlinger, or John. Welcome to the show. 

John Nachlinger: Thank you so much for having me. 

Billie Tarascio: Absolutely. Uh, so you hail all the way from the east coast in New Jersey, correct?

John Nachlinger: Yes, don't hold that against me. 

Billie Tarascio: No, not at all. Not at all. The, the audience is I'm in Arizona and most of our audience is probably west coast, Southwest, but not really at all. And this is such an important episode that I'm sure it's gonna reach people all over the place. So you, how long have you been, um, in the law?

John Nachlinger: I've been a Divorce attorney for almost 20 years, so, oh my gosh. Almost 20 years done over 1500 divorces. It's like seen it all done it all. Yeah. You know, so, yeah. Yeah. 

Billie Tarascio: Okay. So, so we're in the same boat. I've been Divorce or, um, licensed since 2005, doing Divorce stuff. And your, your trajectory from, you know, litigator to coach to mediator is one that [00:02:00] is pretty familiar because when you do this many divorces.

You really do just wanna help 

people. 

John Nachlinger: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, the longer you do it, the more you're like, there's gotta be a better way. There has got to be a better way than what, you know, what we spent, you know, probably you too, the first 10 years of your career, you just been litigating, litigating, going to court, going to court, fighting, fighting.

And after a while, you're like, what in the world am I doing these people aren't any better off than when I started fighting for them. And there's gotta be a better way. So that's kind of where I got to where I am today. 

Billie Tarascio: Very good. 

Very good. Um, so let's talk about men. What do you see typically with men facing Divorce?

John Nachlinger: Well, the one thing that most men encounter is the whole, you know, this caught me blindsided. I didn't realize this was coming. And I found, and I don't know if you've found this too, but Divorce is really 95% emotion to begin with. Um, it's very little law. And so, you know, [00:03:00] most of the time I get guys who can't even think about the Divorce process, because they're still thinking about why is this happening to me? I've been such a great, uh, you know, I've been, uh, I've been out there earning money. I've been taking care of my family. I've been a good husband. I've been a good father. Why is this happening to me? And. It really, I heard this so much over the years and, you know, as an attorney, I mean, what, what do we do?

We can't sit there and, you know, bill our client three, $400 an hour to, to talk about why is this happening to me? So I, it occurred to me that guys really need somebody to talk to. Cuz as you know, most men do not like to talk about their personal life, even with friends. I mean, it's very hard for men to, to really talk about it.

So I saw this over the years. Where guys really just need somebody to work through those early stages with. And then also start to plan a little bit because, um, it's been my experience that women do tend to plan longer for [00:04:00] Divorce. They tend to have a longer trajectory to get to the point where they decide they wanna get Divorce divorced and because of that, they tend to go get advice earlier in the process from an attorney or a coach or, you know, friends, friends that have gotten divorced and men, you know, whenever their wife says, I want a Divorce. A lot of times they're just stunned shocked and they become paralyzed. So I that's sort of the, sort of the universe of people that I thought would be best served.

um, and niche down because I'll tell you one thing. When you go out in the world and you look at Divorce coaching websites, and you look at materials, one thing you will notice, and if you go out you'll, you'll see it immediately. Is that the verbiage, the language, the everything about all of these, these coaches websites is geared towards women.

It does not speak to most men. Men, men really need to be spoken to in a different way to fully understand. And appreciate what they're going through.[00:05:00] 

Billie Tarascio: That's a great point. And what I've noticed is we know statistically that about two thirds of divorces are initiated by women. And what I have noticed is just the person who initiates the Divorce Divorce.

Has wrapped their head around this. They've grieved the loss of their marriage. They've fantasized about their life post Divorce. They're looking forward to this, they've decided this. And so they're just in a much better position, which means two thirds of the time, the responding party is men are men and they are blindsided. And they have a lot of catching up to do. And when you have not caught up emotionally, when you have not processed emotionally, it leads to decisions in the litigation that makes the litigation much more complicated and much more expensive. And it just drags on. So you have people who are fighting over things that they don't really actually wanna fight about, but they can't fight to keep their marriage.

So they fight in, in the courtroom. 

John Nachlinger: Yeah. They're like, if I just drag this on [00:06:00] long enough, she'll change her mind, you know? And you've you see that all the time. Um, but you know, what's even more important for me is helping them understand that anger's not gonna get them anywhere. Any parties aren't gonna help them either the Divorce is gonna happen one way or the other.

And because I also mediate full time in my, with my other hat on mm-hmm , uh, as a lawyer, I really, one of my focuses always is to convince them mm-hmm if it hasn't already been brought up by their wives to convince them. To go down an alternative dispute resolution route to, to get there as quickly as possible to swallow their pride and talk to their wife and be like, listen, okay.

I don't like this, but I don't want this to turn into, you know, war of the roses. I want something that we can control a little bit more where we can be more amicable for ourselves, for our children, whatever. Um, and I really try to use this form to encourage men. To use mediation [00:07:00] because a lot of times they're like, you know, wounded animals, they, they just don't want, they don't want to even talk about it because that means I'm getting Divorce.

That means I'm gonna be talking about getting the Divorce done. So I kind of use this both ways to kind of steer them in the direction I think is best. And of course that's my opinion, but I think most people agree. Litigation's not the best approach for most people in the world. So I try to use it to, you know, move them along.

And I have clients all over the country and in Canada. So I, I have. I coach guys all over the place, west coast, east coast, um, all over the place. And what's interesting is Divorce is the same everywhere. 

Billie Tarascio: Yes. 

John Nachlinger: I know. We, we all think it's like we got 50 different states, different countries. It's the same everywhere .

Billie Tarascio: We have to dissolve.

You're you know, the business aspects of your marriage. We have to divide your property and divide your kids and figure out how to pay the bills. Like that's pretty much all there is to it, no matter where you're at. So what are the [00:08:00] ways that you help men speed up emotionally and kind of get up caught up emotionally so that they can deal with the business of Divorce.

John Nachlinger: so every guy that, that I deal with comes to me in a, from a very different place. So what I do is I kind of look at myself like a basketball coach, you know, and I speak, I speak in sports language because men understand this. Um, I'm like a basketball coach. So what I do is I help men come up with the game plan.

You know, what plays are they gonna run? Mm-hmm what are they gonna do? Mm-hmm and I send them out in the game. See to me the Divorce attorney, the mediator, they're all part of the. I'm just on the sidelines watching it happen. And whenever I see my, my player, my guy not following the plays that we put together, you know, I call 'em over to the sideline and be like, remember what we decided, this is what you were gonna do.

So, um, really it's more about accountability. So what I'll do is, um, we'll figure out what they need. Sometimes guys literally need a two hour cry fest. [00:09:00] Some, some guys need that. And I'm fine with that, cuz I'm, I'm a good listener. I'm a good friend. So I just put on my friend hat and we just sit and we talk about why is this happening to me?

But then there's the guys that that their wives have told them it's coming, but it's not imminent. So she hasn't really done anything to move it along. She just like, you know, says I'm done with you. Or maybe she started seeing somebody else something's happened where it's coming. Then I go into Divorce planning mode, um, or preparation mode, I, which I think is a little bit more of a, a nicer term to use.

And so I actually have a bootcamp, a online bootcamp that guys go through and I sort of just walk them through, helping them understand. Ways they can help themselves with the money, help ways they can help themselves with the kids. And then I also talk about protecting their freedom because I don't know how it is in, um, over on the west coast, but we have a lot of people here that use domestic violence laws, um, as.

Swords rather than [00:10:00] shields. So I do tell guys, you know, to protect themselves and like how to protect themselves. And then I deal with their sanity, you know, basically the post. What are you gonna do with yourself when you're after you're Divorce? Because without that, it's hard to go through a Divorce.

And I mean, you just said a second ago, there's a lot of women that have already visualized what life's gonna look like after their Divorce. I, I kind of get my guys to say, you need to start visualizing that too, you know? And so, so really, um, so if I get guys in that and I have time to actually do some preparation, we'll, we'll go through that.

And then there's just the ongoing, then there's another group of guys that all I'm doing is supplementing their attorney. Mm-hmm so, um, and I've got a bunch of guys every week I talk to, and really it's helping them. Sometimes it's, it's helping them understand why their attorney's doing what they're doing.

Sure. You know, because attorneys, unfortunately, aren't very good at explaining why I'm doing what I'm doing. They just tell you I'm [00:11:00] doing this. Just trust me or, and a lot of there's a lot of attorneys out there too, that get very, um, defensive, whenever the clients say, like, why are you doing that? Why are you doing that?

Instead of just sitting down and explaining to them what what's happening? So it sort of depends where they are in the process. And then I pick it up from there and I sort of see what they need because at the end of the day, all I want is to get them from point a to point. And get them out of this marriage, not a broken person, somebody who's already on their two feet, so they can move forward in their life for their kids for themselves and move on to the next chapter of their life.

Cuz there's gonna be a next chapter. And that's something people forget when they start going through a Divorce. 

Billie Tarascio: Okay. So I love this idea because we can, we can try to have this role as a, as the lawyer. And certainly this is part of our job, but. There is an inherent little bit of conflict in distrust because.

We have an agenda that might not align with theirs as, as lawyers, if [00:12:00] we're, if our agenda is to make as much money as possible, which ours is not because we have plenty of clients. But if that is the agenda of the lawyer that you're working with, then they, you may feel like they're steering you in the wrong direction and they're not working for what's best for your family.

So I wanna ask you about a couple of issues that I see facing men a lot and how you would coach your men. So let's say we've got, um, a man who's going through Divorce and his children do not want to see him. Mom is engaging in some, you know, let's call it pre alienation. It might not even be intentional, but some decisions and discussions about how your dad has left. You he's moved on. He doesn't wanna see you. And all of a sudden the teenagers do not wanna see dad. What do you tell them? 

John Nachlinger: So this goes into the, the whole category of control, what you can control with guys, because. If that's what's going on and I'll use teenagers.

Cause obviously this will depends a little bit on how old [00:13:00] the kids are. Mm-hmm if you're dealing with teenagers, I mean, a couple of things you know about teenagers is, you know, you have a hard time controlling the way they think about things anyway. So even if mom is engaged in any kind of parental alienation, or even just, maybe it's innocent, she's just talking about what's been going on in the downfall of the relationship and, and it's unintentionally alienating the kids, whatever the case is. I just tell guys all the time you have to. Shower, your kids in love, respect, where they are, you know, tell them, you know, I understand that you're upset. Um, and, and, you know, again, if you're living in the same house, it's a little bit different than if you're separated and you know, dad's in another house and mom's still in the house with the kids.

But to the extent he can, I just tell them, control what you can control. You can control, you can control your love for your kids. You can control how you relate to them and you can control what you say or don't say about their mother, that's what you can control [00:14:00] and are the kids going to all of a sudden see how you're just being a better person?

Maybe not, you know, and then they may not see it that day. It may take them six months or a year, but at the end of the day, the best thing that they can do is first of all, make sure that the Divorce is amicable as possible. So it gives their mother less opportunity or less reason to say things about the dad and to control what they can control, you know, just shower your kids with love, do what you need to do.

Um, and then. Really just try not to be so like focused on what she is doing. Cause actually this kind of is a broader issue, which is that a lot of men do not even want to think about why, what their contribution was to downfall the relationship. So that's where, that's where I take always take an opportunity to do self-reflection and be okay. Why did this happen? Well, she stopped sleeping with me. Okay. Well, why did that happen? [00:15:00] Well, you know, she was too busy with the kids and didn't wanna pay any attention to me. Okay. Well, why did that happen? Like, you know, I, it is sort of, because it all, it all sort of arrives from the same place. And I find that most people, men and women do not alienate kids.

Unless either one they're just deranged and they think they're gonna get an upper hand in the Divorce because you know, oh, I'm gonna, you know, alienate the kids or two, they're just very upset about what's going on. And the kids are like, sort of live-in therapists and, you know, They're there. And so you're talking to them and you're telling them all the horrible things that their other parent is doing.

Um, maybe for sympathy, it may, again, it may not be intentional, but so, so really, I mean, that's really, all you can do from a non-legal perspective is just get people to understand you have to control what you can control in a Divorce and what you can't control. You just have to, first of all, listen to your attorney, take their advice and just don't do anything.

[00:16:00] Don't mimic that behavior. 

Billie Tarascio: Mm-hmm 

John Nachlinger: and making the behavior's not gonna help. .Um, and you know, and it's hard, you know, it is guys, it's hard to sit across from them as an attorney and be like, you know, unfortunately, you know, a judge is unlikely to think that this is alienation, you know, and if they're teenagers it's even worse because we all know teenagers get.

You know, upset and, you know, get moody for any number of reasons. So 

Billie Tarascio: yeah, they do. They do. They do. the other thing that I hear men and watch men really struggle with is the concept that they're gonna be broke. 

John Nachlinger: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, there's a perception, right? That the Divorce laws are anti-man yes. There's a perception all over the country. Yes. Which I find very interesting now because there's a lot more women that are making more money than their husbands now.

I mean, I'm encountering this more and more and more. Mm-hmm, , I've several Divorce coaching clients that, um, are going to be receiving alimony. 

Billie Tarascio: [00:17:00] Really? 

John Nachlinger: Yes. And what's interesting is they, when I first talked to them, they were like, kind of. Giddy that, oh, finally, you know, you know, woman's gonna have to pay and all this stuff and you know, and I even then I, you know, I pulled them back in cuz I don't want them talking like that anyway, because as we all know, alimony's alimony or spousal support or maintenance or whatever, it's called wherever.

You're listening to this. It's for a specific purpose. It's not a, you know, a prize because you were married and now you're getting divorced. It's for specific purpose, right? It's it's so I just remind them. I just remind them that yes, the Divorce laws have been around for a long time. You know, I think every state tries to change them a little bit to keep up with the times.

Um, I know there's a movement all over the country to create a presumption of 50, 50 custody in all cases. Um, we're not quite there in New Jersey, but there's, we're trying to move there. Of course it won't come as any surprise to [00:18:00] you, Billie, that the lawyers do not want the law changed when it comes to that, because you know, it, it would create probably some cases would be a lot easier. Yes. And so, anyway, so basically what I just remind them of is the law is the law again, control, which you can control the law is the law. So if the law is that you, you know, made $250,000 for the last five years and your wife's been a stay-at-home wife for the last 10 years, If the law is that you're gonna be paying alimony, you're gonna be paying alimony, get over it, go out and earn more money.

Don't complain, don't have the pity party. Um, and that's really what I talk to 'em about is the, I mean, as you and I both know the law's not anti anti-man, it's just, it's just sort of custody sort of geared towards a stay-at-home parent, which traditionally have more women have been stay at home than men.

Although these days. There's not as many period. And when it comes to money, it's just whoever makes more money. [00:19:00] Again, historically more men, women, more men have made more money than women, but again, that's changing too. So I'm almost wondering if like 50 years, some of those perceptions will go away just because of sort of the way things are changing organically.

Yeah. Gene organically as it is. 

Billie Tarascio: Yeah, definitely possible. So you really are taking a coach's approach. Listen, you can complain that the other team is, is big. But they're big. You still gotta play the game. The game is the game. You're gonna have to get around it. You're gonna have to shoot from farther away or something.

John Nachlinger: I haven't used that one, but I'm gonna use that now. 

Billie Tarascio: I mean, sports analogies are so great because there's nothing like fair. You know, the rules are the rules. When you play sports mm-hmm and you live by the rules. And nobody talks about how the rules are unfair. We changed the rules and they took a time out at the wrong time.

Like they took a time out, they took a time out. You go sit down, you deal with it. Mm-hmm so it's good. It's really good. [00:20:00] I'm gonna start, uh, using this for sure. I love 

it. 

John Nachlinger: Yeah. The sports analogy and it works with every single. Every single man, they completely understand exactly what I'm talking about. Um, and you know, the second and I even give them like the game plan, like I send, 'em an email saying, here's the game plan.

And I even kind of, it it's kind of silly, but I even kind of draw it up like a basketball game plan so that they, they totally understand. But, um, you know, I tell them all the time I'm here for it to listen to you. I'm here for you to cry my shoulder. If you need to. Um, I give all of my guys emergency access to me throughout the week via text and email, no one has ever abused it because you know, again, I guys are still guys.

They still are not as apt to constantly. Anytime they have a thought, they're not apt to just send you messages after message. But, um, when they realize that I'm really just there to hold their feet to the fire and hold them accountable, they love it. And I will tell you, I didn't say this [00:21:00] already, but. The fact that I'm a man is a big deal for most of them.

Um, they, they immediately love that. And in fact, I have an, I have a community it's called the men's Divorce network. It's sort of like, it's on one of those networks. It's kind of like Facebook, but it's not Facebook anyway. And it's men only. And I will tell you having men only, and for them to know that, first of all, I don't work with women that all of these format forms are only men.

It allows men to open up so much more and it's just because, you know, they know they're just surrounded by other guys who are going, who basically, it's interesting. If you listen to what guys are saying on the forum, it almost, everyone's talking about the exact same things. It's what you were just talking about before, you know, they're scared about what's gonna happen with their kids.

They're scared about money. They're just, you know, they're afraid. And so, um, given them all a safe place to come and just be around other men has been so gratifying for me because, um, when I [00:22:00] started this, I didn't do, I really didn't do any advertising. I didn't put any muscle into it. I just did some social media.

And hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of guys just showed up. I mean, within months it was. And so you, and you know, this, whenever that happens, you know, there was an unmet need that was out in the world and you didn't have to do very much to sort of meet it. But the problem is, is that, you know, I'm only one person and most of the people that I know who to Divorce coaching are women, and I know.

That's exactly what like guys don't really want. And I'm not saying a, a female Divorce coach cannot coach a man. I'm just saying that men, they would, I think most of them would prefer, particularly with the crying on the shoulder, talking about their feelings and everything. They actually would rather talk to just another guy about it than, than a woman.

And I've talked to many, many guys about this and that, that is a common thread that I've heard. Mm-hmm so, because of. Um, you know, because of that, I, I think it's, it's been very [00:23:00] successful and I'm very, I'm very happy cuz I, I just feel like making a little bit of a difference and you know, when you've been doing Divorce, as long as both of us have, um, you just look back at all your cases and you're just like, you know, you do, of course you do, the woulda-coulda-shoulda, you know, like we could've done this differently.

And that differently. The one thing I know is if I look back, there's so many men that I have represented over the years, That if they had had somebody to help them process what was going through, not from a therapy perspective, not from a, what happened in your childhood and all this stuff. Just from a, just from a, if I had, had just had someone helping there's so many cases, I think I could have resolved a little bit quicker.

Um, and that's really why I'm doing this, cuz I'm gonna help another attorney help move their case along. um, for the benefit of their client, not for the attorneys. I mean, I'm not to make attorneys' lives easier, but you know, for the benefit of their client and that's really what I want to do. 

Billie Tarascio: Good, good, [00:24:00] good stuff.

I have one other question before we wrap up today, and that is how do you coach men who are being accused of domestic violence or being accused that they have been, and the, the thing that's happening right now, The huge wave that is happening right now. And we saw this kind of with the Chris rock will Smith issue is that people are equating, um, you know, mean words to be emotional abuse, to be domestic violence, akin to

beating someone up mm-hmm so lots and lots of men are being accused now for the first time, by their wives of being violent of committing acts of domestic violence, of being dangerous. How are you coaching those men? So. 

When it comes, when it comes to those issues, the best, the best protection is just making sure that you are documenting and you are recording.

So I don't know what the laws are about one [00:25:00] consent recording in Arizona, but in New Jersey, it's one party consent. Mm-hmm so I, I, every single guy, I mean the first 10 minutes of our convers. And I I've done this with Divorce clients too, but first 10 minutes of conversation is I say, well, first of all, depending on what state they're in, make sure you can record mm-hmm

Um, but once you decide you can I send them off to best buy or target or wherever, and I get, have them get a little digital recorder, just because the phones aren't phones sometimes are hard to like get out. I get them a little digital recorder and I just tell. Listen, every time you are in a space and your wife is anywhere near you.

And I don't even care if she's happy, sad, I don't care. You turn that recorder on because if you guys have a fight or she accuses you of saying something and you don't have that recording that I've told you, you need don't come crying to me, cuz I'm telling you right now that without some kind of objective evidence, you're at risk of some judge.[00:26:00] 

Just finding that you did commit an act of domestic violence, you know, harassment or some other, uh, thing. So, and, and really at the end of the day, unless you have a witness or you have a recording, it's all he said she said, You know, it all, you know, we see all these, you know, we see all these trials on TV now, and it's so funny as a, as a lay person watching it, you think, you know, you sit there and you watch someone you're like, oh my God, that's a horrible witness.

That's a good witness. They may be saying total to crap. But they come across well, you know? Right. Who knows. And if, if a judge that morning just happens to feel like, well, dad, you know, husband's being really cagey and I'm not sure whether or not the veracity of what he's saying. And the wife is up there, you know, crying and, oh, he's done all these horrible things to me and you don't have anything else you're at risk.

And so really [00:27:00] that's the first step is just protecting yourself. And then I also encourage them. Depending on if their wife has threatened it before, if she's threatened, you know, am I call the police or whatever? Um, I've actually had guys tell guys to go and actually go down the police station, meet a local, you know, meet the local cops, just basically saying I'm going through a Divorce, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Just so. Listen, if they ever come out to the house, you've already sort of, you know, indicated I'm going through a Divorce. Um, which I know sounds a little extreme, but it's coming very handy for a lot of guys, just to sort of know who, who the people are out in the world that might encounter you. And that's only if someone's threatened it, you know, you've probably encountered where like someone has threatened, you know, you know, you come in near me, I'm gonna call the police.

And you're like nowhere near. The persons know when you're the, the person that's making that accusation. So that's it. You've got to just guys have got to protect themselves. And that's really the only way to do it. I mean, I'll know [00:28:00] about, I don't know about you, but I've had domestic violence trials in the past.

Where on cross examination, I pull out the old recording and it's wonderful. Mm-hmm cause it's like I start playing the recording and within like two seconds after the 5,000 objections, cuz the other attorney knows that it's damning. Um, the case is over because, you know, so that's really the, if you wanna protect yourself from a bogus domestic violence claim, and we're talking about verbal domestic violence, mm-hmm, obviously, um, but if you wanna protect yourself from something bogus and you calling listen, people have fights and they use curse words.

Mm-hmm 

John Nachlinger: People use people use harsh language. Mm-hmm doesn't mean domestic violence. Mm-hmm but you know what, if you have the recording of the fact that it's you and this other person going at each other, and you're both using this. That's not ever gonna be domestic violence. Um, it's gonna, you know, there's all kinds of other terms for it.

but if you wanna protect yourself, that's really the only way to do it, [00:29:00] unfortunately, because a judge might just not believe you. 

Billie Tarascio: Definitely. And the other thing I really like about that is it will also keep you on your toes. You're going to behave better. We all do. We all behave better when we know we're being watched.

When we know we're trying to create evidence and your whole life at this point is potential evidence for Divorce. So you don't ever tell people in high conflict situations, you need to move out? 

John Nachlinger: Sometimes, sometimes it, I balance it with the finances and the children, um, like young kids, like I'll tell somebody, go into a room and just lock the door, even if she's pounding on it and just stay in the house because I don't want them to move out of there's young kids, unless there's a custody agreement.

But if they're, if they're older kids, I. It depends on if there's parental alienation going on. Cuz if there is those kids could be witnesses against my guys. So sometimes in those situations I'm like, you know what, screw it. Just move out. [00:30:00] You know, we'll pick up the pieces later, but move out. I'm just too scared about what's gonna happen.

I've had, I've had teenagers testify against their dad's before. 

Billie Tarascio: Really? 

John Nachlinger: Yes, I have. I have. And, um, you know, and it's never, it's never that they saw it. I remember this one case in particular, to tell you a quick story. Um, mom was in the garage on the floor, screaming, you know, I forget what she was screaming, but her husband was standing above her.

He didn't touch her. And the son came running in, he was 15 and of course, he saw the aftermath. The aftermath was my, my mother was on the floor, terrified my dad was hovering over her and was big. And what it just, and it, it completely was devastating without, without that teenager coming in and seeing that and testifying as to what he saw, it wouldn't have been domestic violence because there was no evidence of a dispute.

There was nothing. And in fact, there was a lot of other evidence that she had tried to concoct stories in the past. because that teenager saw what [00:31:00] he saw mm-hmm and, and the judge was really, influenced by what the teenager said. It was a restraining order and there was a final restraining order.

And, um, to this day, my client swears up and down, it never happened. Um, but I'm just saying like, kids can be witnesses. And I think we all forget that, cuz we're like, oh, it's our child. Our child would never do that to us. But children, children have a way of. Sometimes picking sides during a Divorce, even though later on, they changed their mind.

And they're like, I'm so sorry. Mm-hmm um, and you have to look at them. You have to look at everyone in your life as a potential witness , and that's why the only way to protect yourself is with objective evidence, you know, and actual recording of what was actually said, mm-hmm and actual video recording.

If you have those security cameras in your house and your wife doesn't insist that you turn them off or unplug them, keep those things recording. I mean, like you can, there's no such thing as enough protection ever. 

Billie Tarascio: Wow. Okay, great, great stuff. If you have enjoyed this episode, make sure to download [00:32:00] it, share it with your friends, send it to all the men in your life.

This really was very specific to men. I wonder if my female listeners are gonna be real angry, it's possible. They are, but you know, men are half of the world. we all need people to look out for us. So don't be mad at John, um, and go back and listen to other episodes. If you have other topics you'd like us to cover here on the Modern Divorce podcast.

Let us know if you'd like to be a guest, let us know. We would love to have you, John. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. 

John Nachlinger: It was my pleasure. Bye.