Modern Divorce - The Do-Over For A Better You

Best Divorce Moves: When is it time?

June 16, 2022 Attorney Billie Tarascio Season 4 Episode 13
Modern Divorce - The Do-Over For A Better You
Best Divorce Moves: When is it time?
Show Notes Transcript

When do you actually pull the plug on the marriage? Are the reasons you're staying the right reasons? What about the kids?

So many questions. And they're all worth asking before you actually find yourself in a divorce.

In this episode of the Modern Divorce Podcast with family law attorney Billie Tarascio, Divorce Coach Abby King talks about how it's possible to strategize these questions beforehand, and how you'll save money with your attorney by knowing how to deal with the important personal questions so your attorney can take care of the messy legal aspects.

You can find Abby, based in Philadelphia, at  @divorcecoachphilly on Instagram and on the internet.


Billie Tarascio: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Modern Divorce podcast. I am your host, Billie Tarascio. And today we've got a fantastic topic for you today. I think you're going to love it. We're going to talk to a divorce coach and mediator about how to keep things peaceful, how to keep things calm. And how do you use people that are not your lawyers to help work out parts of your divorce, which is a great way to save you money.

So, Abby King, welcome to the. 

Abby King: Thank you. Thanks for having me. 

Billie Tarascio: Absolutely. Thank you so much for being here. So can you start by giving us a little bit of your [00:01:00] background and how you, what happened to make you become a divorce 

coach? 

So, uh, when I was divorced, uh, About 10 years ago and going through it for a few years prior, I was the first one out of any of my friends, the first one out of my family.

Um, I hadn't really nobody to talk to or look to other than my lawyer. And around that time I was writing, uh, freelance writing and my articles on divorce were getting a huge response and random people were emailing me with tons of questions. And I was just giving Ansel, you know, solicited advice and.

One thing led to another. And I was researching something for an article I was writing and I came across divorce coaching and I rolled my eyes and thought it was kind of, you know, nonsense and looked into it. And it wasn't. And I went through the training and started my own business and slowly and surely it was growing and growing and, and it's really just been taking off by word of mouth.[00:02:00] 

That's fantastic. 

Abby King: Yeah. Completely unexpected. 

Billie Tarascio: Yeah. So what do people, what do people need from you most? 

Abby King: A lot of, most, mostly custody. Um, I do have single clients. Um, um, we talk about. Moving on a lot of times. It's should I get divorced? Shouldn't I get divorced. How do I tell my family, how do I tell my friends, how do I tell my spouse that I am seriously moving forward with divorce without them freaking out and taking revenge financially or emotionally?

Um, it really varies. I mean, I'd say the crux. If, if you have children is custody. Yeah. I say that's, you know, always. Everything else has kind of sprinkled in depending on the situation. But if you have kids, custody is a big thing that always needs to be addressed. 

Billie Tarascio: Absolutely. And even what you're talking about, you know, I talked to clients [00:03:00] about that almost all the time.

How do I tell him, how do I tell her, um, when do I move out? And these are questions that I can't ever answer. It's always, my answer is always. No, I can work with whatever you want. This is your life and you have to design your life plan, and then I can design your legal strategy that meets your life plan.

And so it sounds like you help people with their life plan. 

Abby King: Yeah. I mean, trying to find the right listen, there's never a right time. So, you know, you have to find your best time and when you're ready and we go through, you know, some people are ready. The second that they call me and some people are a little bit unsure and it takes a little time going back and forth planning the right time where the kids is it on a weekend, then when do we tell the kids?

You know? So it's, there's a lot that can go into it. Yeah. Oftentimes just having somebody to talk it out with that is neutral. I have nothing to gain or lose. Um, you know, I'm on your side. I'm gonna give you my [00:04:00] opinion and alert you to red flags and things that you're not thinking about because now I'm doing this professionally, aside from now, all of the friends that I have that have gone through it.

So anecdotally and professionally, I have a lot of experience. Um, so you know, there there's no perfect time, but you're going to have to pick a time. So I've never had a client that hasn't picked the time. 

Billie Tarascio: Yeah. Yeah. I, that, it makes a lot of sense to me. So let's talk about some of those red flags. So when someone comes to you and they're talking to you and they're trying to figure out, should I get divorced?

Should I not? What's the timing? What are red flags that you might see come up?

Abby King: All the reasons that they're giving me for wanting to stay, have nothing to do with them or their happiness. I'm scared. He's going to, I'm scared. She's going to, I feel bad about the kids. Um, my parents have been married for 60 years and nobody's divorced. So when all of the reasons that you're staying are for everybody else, [00:05:00] that's a big red flag.

And that doesn't mean you shouldn't consider your kids. Um, and all of that, but you know, if there's nothing in there, I still love him. I, I still feel supported by her. Um, I still feel like there is a way maybe we could work it out, you know, if I'm not hearing any of that, you know, it sounds like you're, you're more ready than not.

Um, people really wanting to know that they did everything they could and they're looking. They're looking for me to give them a diploma, like, but did I do everything I could? Well, I can't answer that for you. What does that mean to you? Um, you know, if you just close your eyes and you're quiet for a few minutes, do you really feel like you gave it everything he could, you could have to answer that, but sometimes people are looking for, you know, like a stamp, you can move over, you did it.

So that's really it. Like if, if all your reasons are based on. [00:06:00] External people and external circumstances. And if you're just looking for somebody else to tell you that you did everything you could, 

Billie Tarascio: right. And that, that makes a ton of sense. So what are some of the most common mistakes that you see with people who are getting a divorce 

Abby King: when it comes to kids?

Working out a custody schedule that doesn't make sense. And that doesn't mean that one party is putting it on the other. This means that they could both be kind of screwing themselves up together by agreeing to something that sounds like it makes sense without really thinking it through, um, depending on the age of your kids, but you know, a custody schedule for a two year olds, very different than an eight year old, which is different than a 16 year old.

And, um, really playing out. What time are the pickups on Saturday? What time are we switching? What, where, how many nights? Um, you know, people are very, they worry a lot about the 50 50, if that's what they have, which is great. Um, and they're going with a traditional, I've heard [00:07:00] of this. I've heard of three days or four days.

Um, but they're not really thinking, okay, what time are you going to switch on Wednesday or on Sunday? And what does that look like for the middle of your day? How are you going to handle holidays? You know, um, Memorial day weekend, if you're switching every year, well, Memorial day, weekend Memorial day is just a Monday, but that weekend is Thursday to Monday or Friday to Monday.

Right? So if it's one party's weekend with their kids, but it's the other party's Monday. Memorial day holiday and they don't get the whole weekend and they just get their kids from like nine to six. I'm a Mar you know, so how do you live your life? How do you live Thanksgiving? How do you live July 4th?

Do you guys go away for three days or do you just do fireworks in your town for two hours? You know, thinking about how you live your life and really walking through what custody looks like and trying to make it easiest on everybody. 

Billie Tarascio: That's just a really good point. Um, [00:08:00] in my own parenting plan, I have a really strange parenting plan. We don't have holiday plan. We just have week on week off all year long, and then we have. Two weeks of vacation days, 14 vacation days that either of us can take whenever we want, for whatever reason. Um, and it's because I have, as a divorce attorney have watched people try to navigate this. We share the birthday we sh and, and in my opinion, in my opinion, for my kids, the fewer transitions, the more they can just be in their life.

With their parents and then be in their life with their other parent, for me, was, was a better way to about, 

Abby King: yeah, I mean, and you would know, I mean, if you try that and it's not working, then you can try something else. 

Billie Tarascio: That's true. You can, you can absolutely try something else. Um, and you're not [00:09:00] stuck with a parenting plan.

It can be hard when people have different values. Like one person can be very, uh, much more rigid than the other. So if you have to flexible parents, that's really easy. They don't really call me or probably you that often they figure it out.

Abby King: They're 

flexible. Yeah. I mean, for most of my clients, my advice is always be as detailed as we possibly can with holidays.

With literal times on the transitions are at 4:00 PM. Put everything down. And then you are welcome to be as flexible as you want to be. You can throw it out the window. You can be easy on each other, help each other out, but you want to have something in place in case you don't, you can't, you didn't expect to get divorced when you got married and you don't know what's going to happen next. One of you may find a partner that makes that flexibility not a possibility anymore. For whatever reason, you need to have something that you feel good about to fall back on, because it, you know, it's easy to change if you're [00:10:00] flexible, but it is very hard to change. If one party doesn't want to, both parties have to agree to a change in custody plan.

Billie Tarascio: Right. Right. Which is why your parenting plan just needs to be straightforward. You need, everybody needs to know what it means 

Abby King: detailed, right. As much as you can down. And then. Decide how, you know, how much you adhere to it or not. 

Billie Tarascio: Yeah. So the other thing I'm wondering is when, usually when parents start first, um, putting together their parenting plan, they're really concerned about knowing What's going on, where are my kids?

Like, where are you taking them? Where, where are you living? Who was around them? Where's and they want to know a lot of information, you know, like you need my permission before you go travel somewhere. What, what do you advise people about that? 

Abby King: Right. So traveling babysitters, obviously people should know where their kids are living.

I mean, that's, you know, I actually have [00:11:00] experienced with a situation like that and, and it's crazy, but you should know where your kids are living. Um, but babysitters first, right. Or first right of refusal on vacations and babysitters it's sounds like a good idea. I know it really does. And again, it depends on the age of your kids, the younger they are the better, it sounds.

And here's where the experience comes in. And, um, you know, and this is what a divorce attorney, when you're paying them $500 an hour, isn't going to sit and walk through this with you. And they may not, even if they haven't experienced it, you know, that's, that's not why you have an attorney. Um, but it can be a really bad idea because do you want the opportunity to have your kids on a Thursday night? If your ex has to go out of town, right. Oh, great. I'm free please. I want to have them. Okay. Well, in six months you meet someone you're dating. You're going away for the weekend. You don't want to have to tell your ex at your, where you're going and who you're going with.

And it gets very sticky [00:12:00] and you may love the babysitter. That's two apartments down. She's only 15, but you know her very well. You know that her parents are home. It's there to, you know, apartments away. It's a great situation, but your extras here's that some 15 year old is babysitting your four-year-old and they may not like that.

You know? So. I think that it, you know, obviously barring really rash, crazy decisions. You don't, you, it really only works one way. You want to be asked and given the information, but you don't really want to have to give out that information. So I really, you know, just remind people of that and let them know.

And nine times out of 10, they're like, oh, I'm taking that out. Right. Yeah. 

Billie Tarascio: Yeah. It's, it's a real struggle for, um, parents to go from me in their house with their children every single day to now not knowing for large periods of time. It's hard. It's a, it's an adjustment. I totally understand that. What do you think about, um, phone [00:13:00] contact and video contact?

Abby King: Again, I hate to keep saying like age appropriate. Um, but age appropriate, uh, for, for kids who don't have phones of their own, it would be ideal if the other parent, and it depends, you know, if, if you're doing a week on and a week off and your kids are three or four, You're going to want to talk to your kid at some point in that week.

And so, and the kid is going to want to talk to that other parent, and it is possible to put in a phone call every Tuesday, you know, for 20 minutes and you try to make that happen. Um, you know, if it's two nights, Monday, Tuesday, then Wednesday, Thursday, and the kids are 10, you know, for two nights, maybe let them just be with that other parent.

So I think you just have to use logic when kids are. Old enough. And I mean, old enough kids are having phones now. I don't know. Um, I feel like my kids are 18 and 15, so I'm out of that a little bit, but they've had phones for a while. Kids are getting them younger and younger. Once the kids have their own phones, ideally the [00:14:00] other parent is not going to regulate, you know, you can't call him mom, you can't FaceTime dad.

Like once the kids have the ownership of their own, as long as perhaps if the kid is getting, you know, if your child's getting a phone at nine and third grade, maybe there's a. Not contacting after a certain time. And whatever you decide to bedtime is in your house, but the other parent know, cause you don't want that parent calling at nine and keeping them up for half an hour and video.

So, you know, I would put some boundaries, reasonable boundaries in, but you know, and some kids, it might be too upsetting for them to talk to you. Some kids, you know, when they're with that one parent, when they're with mom, they might just be with them. And when they're with dad, they might just be with dad.

I know a lot of people, even with kids that are teenagers and have their own phones. And so we know they're on those phones hours every night, they're not calling the other parent. It's not because they don't love them. Right. Other parent may be texts or reaches out. They with. They're just like happy at home.

They did their homework, they went to their practice there. They had dinner [00:15:00] with dad and like, they're just not taking 20 minutes to call a mom, which is fine. Like let them be. And I think that each and each kid is different within a family. One kid might be the one that you talk to like every single day.

And the other one you talked to every four days. 

Billie Tarascio: Yeah. I have a hard time getting my teenagers to respond to me. And it's not because we don't have an amazing relationship. We do, but. You know, they're living their lives, they're doing what they want to do. And if 

Abby King: we were doing, and we didn't have home phones, I wasn't running to a payphone to call my mom on a Saturday from the mall.

I was out for eight hours with my friends. Yeah. 

Billie Tarascio: Right. Right. And most of the time, if you were concentrating your mom, it was because you needed a ride or you needed something done. And, and during that time there, depending on the other parent, it's all, it's all fine. 

Abby King: Hopefully people will be reasonable and logical.

I mean, it's really unfortunate. There are so many contentious situations where when those kids are at that other house, they are not talking to the other parent, even if they want [00:16:00] to. And you know, it's just, it's heartbreaking. 

Billie Tarascio: Yeah, but what it is that is heartbreaking. The other thing I, that, you know, it is appropriate to put reasonable restrictions on your children, contacting the other parent.

And there are those situations where the other parent is interfering with your parenting time. They are interfering. They are texting every five minutes to say, what are you doing? What did you eat today? Did you do homework? Did your dad remember each tell you about that? Blah, blah, blah. Um, let's sneak phone calls late at night, but don't tell your dad like that type of behavior.

Abby King: Controlling. 

Billie Tarascio: Not okay. 

It's a really destructive, it's not. Okay. Um, so it's okay at that point for a parent to restrict that contact, you just wish that people would be, you know, as reasonable and loving and flexible and mature as possible, but you know how to get there. 

It's pretty tough. Yeah. It, that's just not how it is for most people.

It takes a while. [00:17:00] How long do you see it takes people to adjust, to being divorced?

Abby King: I think it depends on how much you were co-parenting in the marriage. You know, most of my clients, most of my clients have been doing the crux of the parenting, which makes it easier on that parent. It's usually the parent that was not as involved, that has a harder time, all of a sudden. They're working and having to go to the grocery store.

And I have to go to a doctor's appointment at 3:00 PM on Tuesday, but I'm working can't we go after work? Well, no, because the pediatrician is only there until five 30 and I can't take off work. Well, you have to now take off work because you're now responsible. So I think it's, you know, it's the parent that, you know, there's usually one parent that is, that does the work of parenting.

And so if you're that parent it's easier. And not only easier to adjust them, the other parent it's easier. Like you don't have the person that you haven't been getting along with that you have likely been arguing with that there's heartbreak and all those other things. They're not like in your ear at [00:18:00] night after you've done all the work of parenting and then you're having to deal with them.

You're still doing all the work of parenting you were doing anyway, but now you get to do it like. Peace and freedom. Right? So a lot of people are very relieved and there are a lot of my clients are saying I was doing this anyway, and now I just don't have to listen to him or her, kind of butt in.

Right. 

Billie Tarascio: You get to run your house the way you want to run your house without criticism. 

Abby King: And it's great. I mean, it takes a while. Yeah. To for the other parent to get up to speed. So for a long time, that parent that was doing a hundred percent of the work is still doing a hundred percent of the work still forwarding the emails reminding you have to go to the doctor.

Yes. You do have to go. That's the only time they can take it, still scheduling the appointments. Like usually there is one parent that still kind of takes charge for a while, if not, almost always. Um, and that other, the other parent hopefully steps up and does as close to 50% as they can. But, um, You know, and then it depends on how long you've been unhappy and [00:19:00] you know, the circumstances.

And was it ugly? Was it amicable? Yeah. And how long has that process been? Do you have a life of your own? Do you have friends? Do you work? If you don't work and you've been home with the kids? That's great. But do you have, do you have a yoga class or do you like music? You know, what, have you done anything for yourself in your free time?

So when you're alone without the kids, you're not just looking at four walls for six months until you find something to do. 

Billie Tarascio: Yeah. Yeah, in my experience, some of the hardest divorces are where there are the most traditional relationship roles, um, because divorce undoes all that, it blows up your tradition, like the way your family operated is completely blown up. And it's a little different. If you've got two working parents who were juggling and managing, both of them were juggling and managing, as you said, usually one person is the primary, but [00:20:00] when you have two working parents, you're, they're coordinating pickups there.

They're talking about all the things. Um, there's a daycare already involved. There's childcare already involved. There's those structures that you'll need as a divorced parent, the already started it's built right. And so it can be very difficult for those very traditional relationships. And mostly I see moms struggle in that case, giving up so much of her identity, not, not having to, not having built a career feeling very left high and dry without enough support in terms of money.

Are you working with people like that? 

Abby King: I mean, I'm surprised. How many, and it's, you know, less and less, uh, I've been doing this for years and it's getting less and less, but I have plenty of clients who don't have any access to the financial records or bank accounts. they kind of know how much money there is.

Maybe they're not exactly sure. They can't really [00:21:00] call the financial planner. Cause they've only talked to them maybe once or twice with their ex or with their spouse. Um, there are a lot of. Women who are really stuck. And, you know, there's a lot of, I'm very flexible in my payment plans. Um, but I've had gotten payments in all sorts of creative ways from women who really, I mean, they really have, um, a spouse who, if they so chose, but no, exactly every penny they spent because they don't have their own.

Not even source of income, because there are plenty of marriages also where there is just one person working, but the other person is a complete partner in the financial plan. They're oftentimes even that person, the one that's not working is paying all the bills, making him one is then running. It can care of everything else with that.

So that's a great position to be in, but there are, I have several clients who literally have, um, no way. You know, to even write a small check or [00:22:00] Venmo without their spouses knowing There are things that we can do and there's things that they start to do in the home to try to get a handle on that before they're ready, but it's a really awful position to be in.

Billie Tarascio: Do you find that most, do you ever work with clients who are already divorced or work with them all the way through their divorce and post divorce? 

Abby King: Yes, I often. So a lot of times what happens is I'll work with, I only have a few couples as clients, but I will work with clients on and off for a regular basis. And then I won't hear from somebody, it could be two months, it could be 13 months.

And all of a sudden I get an email. I need help with X, Y, and Z. Yeah. It depends like, you know, you never know what's going to happen, how you're going to feel. What's going to pop up. 

Billie Tarascio: Let's switch gears for a minute. Many people who are listening to this podcast are going through a divorce or they're out of divorce and they're thinking, what would life be like as a divorce coach?

Should I [00:23:00] be a divorce coach? Can you tell me about what that process is like of becoming a divorce coach and, and how the market receives you?

Abby King: Sure. So there are a lot of programs I went with like one of the first programs, CDC certified divorce coaching. You can look it up online. It was virtual, it was a virtual program years ago, having nothing to do with a pandemic.

So, um, I would definitely vet whatever program you want to do. Um, and you know, mine was either 16 weeks kind of full-time or 32 weeks. Part-time so I just did it all at once. And there's mentoring there's training, practice sessions. It's it's rigorous. Oh, and then you just, I mean, for myself, I just kinda hung up my shingle and let my friends know and started an Instagram and slowly and surely.

And my name kind of quietly got out there and I kept meaning to. Advertise on Google and I still haven't four years later, I haven't needed to. [00:24:00] It's been growing. I have connected, you know, I, in the beginning I put up a Facebook post locally, everybody that I know if you're in a divorce professional, a realtor, financial planner, lawyer, you know, anything that I might need, I made a bunch of contacts and now I have vetted referrals to give.

I have lawyers who will tell their clients to call me because they're using their time and inefficiently. Um, they don't want to handhold and it's wasting their client's money and it's wasting their time. This is not what they were trained to do. So, um, some practices are more receptive than others.

So the old traditional law firms, um, where all the lawyers are of a certain age and a certain race, and they all look the same. They're a little less, um, embracing. Of a divorce team, if you will. And then there are plenty who are down for it and really happy. And I mean, I've sent a lot of clients to therapists.

Therapists will send me their [00:25:00] patients. Um, so it's, it's been great. It's been just slowly growing at a pace that makes me happy. There are also tons of ways. There's, you know, divorce, professional networks and conferences. So there there's a lot you can do, if you want to know. And there are a lot of companies now that are divorced companies and you can go on their websites and they will have all different professionals in different areas.

Um, and that can be a great resource. I've been contacted by some I haven't really wanted to, um, commit to. Branding myself as somebody else. I kind of, I'm happy doing it the way that I'm doing it, but that's a, you know, an opportunity for somebody who just wants to be getting a certain amount of referrals every single day and getting in there.

And, um, you know, there's a lot of different ways now. People seem much more open to it. I mean, a lot of my clients, I ask, I ask everybody, how on my intake, where, how did you find me? And if it's not a referral, they just Googled. [00:26:00] Philadelphia divorce, coach Philadelphia. I mean, I never would have even known the word divorce coach when I was thinking about this 12 years ago.

Billie Tarascio: Yeah, that's great. Sounds like it's a growing industry. There's a ton of opportunity. It is feel it it's flexible. It works for you. 

Abby King: Yeah. I mean, I think that you can have, I think it can be as busy as you want to be. I mean, that being said, it's a, it's a fit, right? It's just like a doctor, a therapist, not every client's for every coach and vice versa.

Um, so you definitely out of a hundred referrals, you're not going to have a hundred clients and you're not going to want all a hundred either. They're not going to be the right person for you. Um, but yeah, I think that you can be as busy as you want to be. You can network. If you love networking, you can get in there.

Personally, I have a different approach. I like word of mouth, like growing that way and it's been working and every time I feel like, Ooh, you know what, I'm going to really, I need to push it. It's like, then I get just a bunch of emails the next week. I'm like, oh, now [00:27:00] I'm too busy.

So yeah, exactly. So it hasn't ever really still gotten to the point where I've needed to advertise. 

Billie Tarascio: How does the pricing work? 

Abby King: I mean, it's literally whatever somebody wants to charge. Okay. So it depends. 

Billie Tarascio: So there might be a package, there might be a membership that might be hourly. It could be any of those things.

Abby King: Yeah. Okay. I mean, I, yeah, I offer, I mean, my sessions are an hour give or take. I'm not going to kick somebody off the phone. Um, and so I have a small savings, a pack of three, a pack of five. If you want unlimited access and sessions for three months, there's a price for that. I'm very flexible. There are some, yeah, I, you know, there's.

A range of pricing and flexibility you know, you really have to, if, if you're going to pick somebody, have a consult, see how you vibe with them, what you think about them. And if they seem like the right person for you, then start looking into the pricing. I mean, it should, should be affordable for most people.

Billie Tarascio: Okay. I mean, 

people can expect.

Abby King: I mean, it's really all over [00:28:00] the place. I mean, I, you know, I'm priced at about one 15 per session and there are people who are $500 a session. 

Billie Tarascio: Wow. 

Abby King: Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like it's, and for some people you need to commit to six sessions and for some people you can take it, you know, As needed. I mean, it's really kind, it's really kind of all over the place, you know?

I mean, there's lawyers at a $300 an hour and lawyers that are $3,000. 

Billie Tarascio: Yeah. I don't know very many, $3,000 our lawyers, but they're out there. I know this. 

Abby King: Yes. So you have to really, you know, and, and just like the retainer, is it different lawyers? I mean, somebody will call me, I just, you know, gave a $50,000 retainer.

I'm like what? You didn't need to do that money. Yeah. It's a lot of money and you didn't need to do that. Um, so do your research. And once you find two or three people that the price seems like it works in your budget, then have a consult call and see, you know, what their personality is. [00:29:00] Um, some people are very prescriptive.

This is my workbook. We're going to go on ABCD. This is our homework for the week. And there are a lot of people that have that personality and that works for some people, some people, you know, I'd kind of just, I listened to my client. By the end of a consult. I'll tell them what I think I heard. And this is what I think that you're asking for.

Is that, is that it? Okay. This is what I'm hearing are the priorities are those the priorities. Okay. Do you want to pick one, two and three? You pick what you want to work on first, and if that works for you, then that's kind of how I approach it. 

Billie Tarascio: Got it, makes sense to me. So people want to contact you, Abby, how do they find you?

Abby King: Uh, divorce coach philly.com is my website. Every I answer every question you could think of and tell you about myself, and then you can also find me divorcecoachphilly on Instagram. 

Nice. Well, Abby thank you so much. And the audience, if you have a loved this episode, make sure to like it rank it, [00:30:00] leave a review, send in your questions.

We will always try to find guests to meet your needs. 

Abby, you've been absolutely wonderful. Thank you so much for your time today. 

Thank you. Bye.