Modern Divorce - The Do-Over For A Better You

How to Survive and Thrive a High Conflict Divorce

April 28, 2022 Attorney Billie Tarascio Season 4 Episode 6
Modern Divorce - The Do-Over For A Better You
How to Survive and Thrive a High Conflict Divorce
Show Notes Transcript

When the teacher at the school called Camilla Calberg to report her daughter's increasing emotional issues at school, she knew what the problem was. Her verbally abusive partner's angry outbursts had left her daughter in an emotional mess. And Camilla could feel it too.

In today's episode of the Modern Divorce Podcast, Billie Tarascio talks with Copenhagen-based Camilla, who has since become a divorce coach helping people through the same messes she endured. She talks about how to plan your exit, how to manage the fallout and why putting a team of supporters together is the best way to survive and thrive.

To find out more about Camilla, and tap into her online help, look for Camilla Calberg Coaching. She is also active on LinkedIn and Facebook.

Billie Tarascio: [00:00:00] Hello, this is Billie Tarascio with the Modern Divorce podcast, back to you. With another episode that I think you're going to find very, very helpful, very, very relevant. We're talking about the phases of a high conflict divorce and how to get through them, how to address the planning stage before you file the pendency of the divorce, which can feel like forever and sometimes last several years, and then how to thrive afterwards.

And we are so lucky to be joined today by international divorce coach Camilla [00:01:00] Calberg, Camilla. Welcome to the show. 

Thank you 

Camilla Calberg: so much, spill it out. Look forward to, uh, to being a guest on your podcast and, and sharing what I know to be true. 

Billie Tarascio: Absolutely. I really appreciate it. So without further ado, tell people what you do, and then let's dive right into how to thrive and how to plan through a high conflict divorce in phase one, which is before you filed.

Yeah, I love it. So what I do, I'm a professional coach, amended international coaches, as you said, in the instruction. And I now support men and women. Going through a divorce. And the reason for that, I was in that toxic relationship myself and I had no idea how to plan for divorce.

So I actually sat on that and procrastinated the decision for more than two years, I could see. My, my mental and emotional health, a [00:02:00] deteriorated and so did my daughter. And at one point I just had to come to the crossroad and say no more. And I thought I was the only one, I don't know, but I thought that was the only one in this environment.

Camilla Calberg: This is science. But then reaching out. And so there's so many people out there who doesn't, don't reach out for help. And that's why I'm now here. And so happy to help so many men and women get a bit of life. And on the other side of divorce. 

Billie Tarascio: I love it. I love it. That's fantastic. And what you experienced, you know, spending two years knowing you needed a divorce?

Uh, not knowing what to do is so common is so common. Most of the time when I am talking to someone who's ready to file for divorce. They've been thinking about it for three years and they've waited until things are very, very, very bad. And they've hit their breaking point. So how can people prepare for divorce when they know they need one and they're in [00:03:00] a toxic high conflict relationship, 

Camilla Calberg: um, how they can prepare for that?

I think the first part of that preparation is to actually start by honoring who you are and what you deserve in life. What life you deserve. That's really where you as a crossroad. Is this the relationship I'm in right now, does this serve me? What doesn't serve you like, I procrastinate on this divorce for two years, but as you say, it's common for more than three years.

So we actually put a putting our life on pause for three years and more. And that's why, so that's the first kind of flag. So be prepared and dare to lean forward. And then I would say, um, in order to, um, to prepare for that, what I know to be true, and that's also why I stepped into being an international coach, get [00:04:00] professional people on board, like a lawyer, yourself, like a therapist, like a coach, someone else who can help you plan.

I had first, I had my coach and I would never have planned in April to plan my divorce. I planned every single moment, every minute, how I was going to break it, where my daughter was going to be, I had my entire network lined up for that one conversation at 8:00 PM that night. And that made me from when I took the decision that right now, normal, I saw just got everything in order. And then I took back control and then it was me driving it. And I was no more a victim of the relationship all of a sudden. 

Billie Tarascio: Okay. Well, there was a lot there. What, what many people do when they, when [00:05:00] they realize, wow, this relationship isn't serving me, I don't have the life I want.

I'm not proud of the life and living. That's usually kind of the starting point. And then. What usually happens is that when people try to start setting some boundaries, try to start changing the relationship and to see can I, within my relationship, get to a point where I do feel good about my life and my relationship and myself and.

Did you try that? Did you go through a period of trying to set different boundaries and set different parameters and change your relationship? And tell me how that went? 

Camilla Calberg: Hmm. I love that because actually that was before the planning of it, but I did. And actually I went with the person. I was, I left him first time when my daughter was just about a year.

Then we were split up for two years . We lived at each other in different places, and then we redrew rejoined or what do we call it? recoupled. And we spent [00:06:00] more than three years on couple therapy. I can't remember how much money we invested in this. And he knew he had to work on his, um, his behavior.

So we had couples therapy. He had his own therapist sessions on a weekly basis. We invested so much, we were on these romantic retreats, but there was no sign of improvement. On the other side that when we flipped the coin, I started losing my hair. I was afraid to go to bed at night. My daughter's started to do self sabotage. That was so many signs that even though we try to heal or fix what could not be broken, it just stuck to fall into more pieces. And that's why I came to the very clear crossroad. I can no longer be in this relationship or this relationship doesn't serve [00:07:00] how I want to live my life.

Billie Tarascio: Okay. 

So one of the things that you talked about that you planned out was how you were going to break the news. And this is a big deal for people. People really struggle. And they asked me, should I tell him before we get served? And usually women are the ones filing for divorce, which is why I'm saying him, but it's not always that way.

Sometimes men filed for divorce and they wonder the same thing. Should I tell her, or should I just have her served? Should you reach out to her? So how did you come to the conclusion that you were going to sit down with him? 

Camilla Calberg: Okay, actually, so, okay. It was Easter, and he was doing some painting and the person he is, he got really, really aggressive.

I'm giving him two years. And on that Easter that what happened a few months before that was in January, we were called to a meeting in kindergarten and they told us, so my kid might, our daughter has had a therapist for a year because she started to [00:08:00] react. Nobody had even asked how our family environment was.

We will call to this meeting in kindergarten. And, uh, we were told that they were not sure whether she could actually manage to go to this private school. At top boarding school in Copenhagen area as a day student. And that's why the breaking point where I said I was crying in the meeting. I said, I know what's going on at home.

You don't know, but I know. And so end of February, end of January, I very quickly to. Two days after that meeting, I got a, um, I dunno, a child therapist on board and we started having sessions with a child, the therapist, actually to, uh, help heal our daughter. As we were meeting this therapist on a weekly basis.

I used that one of [00:09:00] those meeting as my opportunity of a window of opportunity to break the news. I didn't dare to break the news at home. I was afraid whether he was going to hit me. I was so scared, but I knew I could, I could break the news in this neutral on this neutral grounds and I would not be alone.

And that's how I plan. In every step every minute, uh, on that specific day. 

Billie Tarascio: I really like that. And many times when a couple is breaking down, one person will say, can we go to therapy? And the other person will say to me, you know, I don't want do the therapy I am done. And I will suggest that they do therapy because there's a lot to work out while your restructuring your relationship.

If you have children and having that therapist. Space and mediator to set some ground rules can be a very useful tool in planning. What is our [00:10:00] life going to look like post-separation and many times, um, the person who's leaving has to, or ends up in a position where they're saying, listen, I need a break.

We need a trial separation for the good of our relationship. He, or she may know that there's very little hope that things are going to work out, but you need a plan. You need a plan for where are we going to live? How are we going to share our children? How are decisions going to be made? So what are some top tips to help people figure that out?

Were you able to stay in the same house?

So many questions here, but where are we able to stay in the same house? So it was my house. So he had to move out. I was, I was still saying, I'm not sure whether I truly deeply believed it, but I was willing to say we, if we could do this Cola couple fair. What do you call? I call, I can't even remember what it's called now, but this Cola [00:11:00] relationship where we're living apart, but still being a family, I kind of a build that dream.

Camilla Calberg: So we would have a smooth, a family environment. We stayed together for three months and I would tell you. It was the most helpful free months we ever had in the way that he, we, we even went on holiday together and how he got is a person that really can get very, very aggressive and mean. So we experienced my daughter, I verbal abuse and.

How he became very mean. And towards my daughter, me, it was just unbearable, but we shouldn't have done that, but we did it. And that's how it is. And I wouldn't suggest. Anyone else should do it at the three months window. Like if you decide to split up that person or we move forward and I, we just recently moved [00:12:00] house and it makes such a big change when you get from a toxic environment to new environment.

So I can really just encourage anyone to move. And maybe it's both of you to move because there's always memories this toxic environment, and it's not good for your energy. 

Billie Tarascio: I agree with you. I think that I often suggest people consider. People liked the idea of keeping the family home and having stability for the children.

But I think the new start, the fresh start is almost easier. And also what you're talking about, that interim period where you're trying to figure out are we breaking up? Are we not, can be the most dangerous and the most toxic. And so many times it would be better to just rip the bandaid off, but that is so hard for people to do because people take vows and they mean them.

And they don't want to disrupt their children and they're afraid it's not easy. 

Camilla Calberg: Yeah. [00:13:00] I heard success stories as well. If I didn't know. I was very clear that I had made the decision and I'm very proud to feel that it's mommy who's made that decision, that we should not be alone together.

The only reason why it took three months is that he had to find a new place and he could only get in. So they, his new flat three months or four months down the road. So I was conscious, of course, we can stay together. But it's so dangerous because the environment gets, so we were in a, in a verbal abusive environment.

And the verbal abuse just became more intense because he was sad. He was angry. And you know, it just really affected my health and the health of our daughter. Right. And if I may just elaborate in this, we recently moved house and we moved house because my daughter wellbeing, what's really at a point where I was [00:14:00] so concerned about her.

Just a year ago. So therapist suggested that I should move house because of her. And I sat on it and I put my house on the market and we moved, and this is I'm sorry, this is not joking. Two hours after we moved into our new house. And I can feel my body now reaction. She started to change personality in less than two weeks.

The school reported how more happier she has become. And she has changed from not being able to say goodbye at school, to be able to say goodbye in school in less than three weeks.

Billie Tarascio: Wow. 

Camilla Calberg: That's why with this, this, this is a living experiment I do right now and I'm documented. That's why it's so important.

And I haven't read no books about this, but I can see how quickly my daughter has become so much happier when lifting her [00:15:00] up from the out of this toxic environment into a completely new environment where she relaxed. 

Billie Tarascio: That it makes a lot of sense. If you are harboring memories that are, I mean, post-traumatic stress disorder is you are.

Exposed to a trauma and that trauma continues to bother you. I mean, essentially, and it interferes with your bit, once it interferes with your ability to do other things, now you've got PTSD. And so that can be anything for anyone. And if you're living in a house where a child experienced witnessing abuse or experiencing their own trauma, Uh, 

then being 

in that environment can bring up those triggers again and again, and starting over can relieve that.

So it does make a lot of sense and I guess we're skipping forward, but not necessarily, you can change the environment at any phase pre divorce during the divorce or after the divorce. And maybe the [00:16:00] sooner, the better, I guess, is what. 

Camilla Calberg: Absolutely because if we're talking about children, then what I know now is that if children live in a toxic relationship, it affects that ability to learn.

And so the window's right to grow and become, and I don't have the right word here, but a well functioning adults and teens, and with just being with social skills and all that. So, and the longer they stay in that in abusive relationship. And she's seen me being verbally being verbally abused and she takes that on and doesn't take on the guilt.

But when I was verbal abuse, she was verbally abused as well. And that's why the sooner you can move out of that environment, whether you still are in the relationship or marriage, the better for the child, and then also better for you because verbal abuse. If you hear a verbal abuse, more than 10 times, you start to [00:17:00] believe it.

It affects your health, your emotional wellbeing, your mentally well-being your career. There's so many. And consequences by being in a, an environment that doesn't serve you. Um, 

Billie Tarascio: so does your daughter still see her dad? 

Nope. He has got a, um, a court ruling that he is not so far out to see her. 

Okay. So how did that happen.

Camilla Calberg: So, okay. That's a really interesting question. after divorce, her health started to really deteriorate and I got more and more concerned about her. And I start to reach out, scream out for help. And here in Denmark, you have to go to the county. And, uh, the county, I filed a report and then officially that report goes to the Dad and that says, oh, but Camilla, she is just very unstable.

You can see she's a good mom. [00:18:00] And she, our daughter she's completely wellbeing. She's got a lot of friends. And then we will go into a lot of mediations and conversations in this kind of a, I don't know, it's not a courtroom. I don't know what we call it in English, but in a, in a, in a family support environment.

And they, they we've got jobs here, sign the lawyers, attorneys on, and then they ask for evidence from the school. And the report is the same changes that they see that are sort of a source. Well, and then he asked for a kind of 50, 50, I don't know what we call it. Um, but stay seven days in my home and seven days of her home and she.

The co the short of a long story was like, they, they believed in what I reported her being unstable, her being on kind of on the edge to break [00:19:00] down. And that's where I said, and I've reported verbal abuse and they listened to my case. And they saw the divorce and the relationship from the eyes of a child finally.

And that's where a court ruling came and said you at this moment in time, you're not allowed to see your daughter. 

Billie Tarascio: Um, how long did that take for the court to understand what you were saying? 

Camilla Calberg: Mm. And the whole process from reaching out first time to help with the didn't believe me, trust me at all. Um, Let's say I'm about a year, one year.

Billie Tarascio: And how, how many times did you go in front of the judge in that year? 

Eh, he and Denmark. I was, I had my attorney to go fronting the judges, but I was, that was case rulings. And, uh, I, I, to be honest, I don't know how many, but she was not protecting me, [00:20:00] but she was. Uh, dealing with his lawyer.

Camilla Calberg: So I didn't know he was filing a court case against. And then the moment I, I found out I, I researched and I decided to put my money on one of the best lawyers in Copenhagen areas. I'm rather prefer to invest money in a person that can help me.

And then like put my life, not my life on hold, but like holidays. And investing money in that rather than saying, I can't afford that and I can do it myself. I don't want to go on holiday. So that's was a very clear decision and conscious decision. I might make a, that January. 

Billie Tarascio: That's very impressive and it's very hard to do here.

It's very hard to get a judge to suspend a parent's parenting time based on verbal abuse. And [00:21:00] what we have to do is exactly what you said. We have to show a direct impact to the child. If your child had been functioning well in Arizona, where I'm at a judge would not care, but if you can show my child is not okay with this.

Cause were you doing one week on one week off? Were you doing equal time? 

Camilla Calberg: No, no, no, not at all. That was no equal time. This has never been really present. So he really shifted because suddenly, no, that's never been like that. And she hasn't seen her dad and had never slept over since you moved out of the house is.

Okay. So in this before, um, before the court has made this decision, she was also asked to invite it into a meeting, but, uh, and [00:22:00] she was supposed to be on, on her own, but she could, they could just, it was so. She was so afraid. And so I think that situation there's broke by itself. It wouldn't say in English it's was very clear.

She was not wellbeing and not wellbeing, not in her wellbeing. And what the report, the school report as well was like, this is a girl you have to be really cautious about 

Billie Tarascio: how old is she now? 

Camilla Calberg: She's. seven when all this started, she was about 5. 

Billie Tarascio: Got it. Okay. So is there a path forward? Will 

he will where he will see her or 

no, 

Camilla Calberg: we don't know yet, so maybe by the time that will be a kind of an assessment. With the psychologist and they will, uh, all four for the chart, the take of the child. And they will interrogate him, find out how [00:23:00] his qualities as a parent, they will find that they will assess and monitor how they connect if they connect. So, because she's so afraid of him.

And then from that, from all these, um, conversations and observations, they will decide. What is the best for our daughter. 

Billie Tarascio: Wow. So it sounds like the process is a little bit different there, but if I'm just recapping phase one and phase two phase one is before the divorce. And it sounds like your biggest takeaway is plan everything

Camilla Calberg: absolutely. Plan everything and make sure that you have professional resources on board, who you can pull in as team members to ideally get something to you. Either delegate something to someone else with a professional. Kind of tool belt, who your trust [00:24:00] will speak your case. 

Billie Tarascio: Yeah. Gather your advisors, plan your exit and get physical separation as soon as possible.

Those were, were the big takeaways I heard on before now during the thing that I heard you say is invest in the very best team you can get invest in the very best lawyer you can get and then hand that over. Is that right? Or do you have any other tips for during the divorce? 

Camilla Calberg: I think it's not only the divorce, but also your therapist, a coach, whatever, because it's also about healing yourself and making sure that you heal your trauma and your, you find inner peace.

So you can also help your children. And so during divorce, I got a two therapists on board to help my daughter. And I paid it myself, invested in like myself, because he didn't believe in me. So that was really, again, the planning for that was during the, that was [00:25:00] during the divorce phase.

And this is really interesting. And what I learned to really want to share that where you are your audience. And when I was. I just witnessed or I could witness how she, how her wellbeing deteriorated. And I decided, okay, she needs help. 

So I asked my it's insurance 

company, can you help her? And I bought an insurance package, but that was saying kind of a lead time of six months, which meant I had to invest in coaching sessions or a therapist.

From my own funds. So here's what I would suggest. I invite your audience to consider really, if you are the soon, if you have children, the sooner you can buy a insurance package it's includes therapy sessions for your children. The better you are, at least in Denmark, then a lead wind of six months when you need it, you need it.

So [00:26:00] put that, put that in the front of the planning, if that makes sense. 

Billie Tarascio: Yeah. That is a uh, great point. Look at your insurance coverage. See what's covered and make any changes you can anticipating a need for more behavioral health support. That is a brilliant tip. 

Camilla Calberg: Absolutely. And then don't get the back way, right?

That's why I held my clients to try this as soon as possible, as fast as possible. And that is a planning I learned the hard way. 

Billie Tarascio: And also I want to say, as a lawyer, when, when we have therapists and the school, when we have objective parties who are reporting the same thing as our client, it is much, much, much, much easier to have a judge take our concerns seriously when it's just one parent's concerns versus another parent's concerns, our courts it's like they don't hear anything.

Camilla Calberg: Yeah, but that was also an our [00:27:00] case, but then the school was said kind of call them to report how they is saw her and how they, how she was so rotten in school. So she was in such a bad state that you had to listen to what the adults around her, um, reported.

Um, and because we are up against a person who has his own life and your perspective on life and how reality is, but it's not really reflecting the the real reality. Can we say that? So, so you, so luckily that was enough evidence to the judge to listen to the reporting and, or, and say, okay, this is for the sake of a child. It's not the sake of it, of a parent, right? 

Billie Tarascio: Right. That's just key. It's absolutely key. Now, if we move into the last phase, post divorce, [00:28:00] what are your top tips to thrive?

Post divorce. 

Camilla Calberg: I love that question. The top tips to thrive post-divorce, if you haven't healed your trauma, if you still linger in, in grief, aggressive, less kind of a depression, whatever heal your cannot thrive, if you haven't healed. And when you have healed and if you work with the right resources, right coaching as a therapist, you will start to find your inner peace in a north star.

And when you find your inner North Star everything around you can be authentic, but when you know what to be true, and when you trust yourself and when you love yourself, you are proud of what you've done [00:29:00] and what you do. Then then you're really, really start to thrive and live your best life.

Billie Tarascio: That is major and sort of easier said than done on one hand. The first thing is. From trauma treat depression or anxiety or whatever else is going on, that needs to be treated. And the third one is the really hard thing. Learn how to hear and listen to your north star. Can you talk a little more about that?

Camilla Calberg: Yeah. So this is really about looking inside. Change comes from within. So work with a coach that will help you identify. What is your purpose in life? What are you dreams alive? And what are your limiting beliefs? What are your limiting beliefs? Where do you not trust yourself? Why do you want to stay in the comfort zone and not tapping into what is good for you and creating something new you [00:30:00] either you can be the creator.

Or you can be a victim of it. And like you and me, we create the future for someone else, but you will thrive when the moment you dare to step into the unknown. But the best way to get that is actually to work with a coach, a therapist who has the tools and what helped you. Tap into your dreams because your dreams can come true.

And then maybe you say, oh, when you listen to me right now, say Camilla, that is not true. But then there's something is blocking you for owning that. And then it's about healing. It's about working on what is blocking you for leaning forward. Does that make sense? It does. 

Billie Tarascio: It does. And it is the perfect segue into how can people reach you and work with you?

Camilla Calberg: Yeah, so they can reach, uh, I will find a various platforms like LinkedIn and Facebook. So my name is Camilla Calbert, where the C [00:31:00] and R if in your, in your show notes, you'll put it in. And my website is se Calberg coaching, eh, and I think that's the best way to, uh, to reach out to me on from my side. So follow me.

Either Facebook or LinkedIn, I'm very present on LinkedIn. 

Billie Tarascio: And how long do people usually work with you? Your coaching clients? 

Camilla Calberg: it really also depends on where you are. And then I have group coaching sessions, uh, group coaching programs before and after, as we talked about before. And then after, because we had different emotional and mental stages, depending on where we are on the, on the divorce journey. 

Billie Tarascio: Wonderful. Thank you so much for your time today.

It's been an absolute pleasure. If you all have enjoyed this episode of the Modern Divorce podcast, make sure to like this episode, rank it, leave a review, and then we will make sure to get you Kamila's website here. Camilla. Thank you so much for coming on the [00:32:00] show. 

Camilla Calberg: It's been a real pleasure. Thank you for inviting me Billie by.