What do you do when your spouse cheats? In today's episode of the Modern Divorce podcast, longtime friends Jessica Klingbaum and T.H. Irwin - the Ex Experts, share their respective divorce journeys with host Billie Tarascio.
The road was messy and long for them both, and after rebuilding new lives, T.H. and Jessica decided to share their collective expertise on their website at ExExperts.com, along with a plethora of free resources for helping a newly divorced person through the horrible experience of getting divorced.
Pro tip from the Ex Experts: being able to make decisions about your financial future is critical to rebuilding your life as an independent adult. For many people who were not in charge of the finances and other decisions during their marriage, this can be a challenge, but the payoff is independence and life satisfaction.
What do you do when your spouse cheats? In today's episode of the Modern Divorce podcast, longtime friends Jessica Klingbaum and T.H. Irwin - the Ex Experts, share their respective divorce journeys with host Billie Tarascio.
The road was messy and long for them both, and after rebuilding new lives, T.H. and Jessica decided to share their collective expertise on their website at ExExperts.com, along with a plethora of free resources for helping a newly divorced person through the horrible experience of getting divorced.
Pro tip from the Ex Experts: being able to make decisions about your financial future is critical to rebuilding your life as an independent adult. For many people who were not in charge of the finances and other decisions during their marriage, this can be a challenge, but the payoff is independence and life satisfaction.
Billie Tarascio: [00:00:00] Hello again, it's Billie Tarascio back with another episode of the Modern Divorce podcast. And today is going to be a wild ride and a good time. I can assure you, we're talking to the eEx Experts and these are two fun spunky ladies who are keeping it real. Post-divorce they've got a business and I'm so excited to welcome them to the show, Jessica and T.H. welcome to the show.
Jessica: Thank you so much for having us.
T.H.: Thank you.
Billie Tarascio: Absolutely. So [00:01:00] let's just get a little bit of your background. Would you mind just telling me a little bit about who you are and what brought you to becoming the X expert?
T.H.: Well, Jessica likes to tell the story. And then I'll chime in.
Jessica: Well, this is really the story about how T.H. and I first met because my first husband and T H were best friends in high school.
And so I met her when I was in college as a freshmen. They were both juniors. Um, she had come up to our school for Halloween party, and I w I've heard all about her from him. And I went running over to her and was like, oh my God, your T.H., it's so nice to meet you. And she was like, where's Darren, like, so standoffish and I went over to him later.
I'm like, that's your best friend? What a bitch. And then like PS, a couple years later, we're living in New York
T.H.: that I've heard this story so many times because we're doing this project together. And the truth is. You know, I was up, I was ready to drink and party it's Halloween or in college. [00:02:00] And this thing comes like two, two centimeters from my face.
And I was like, I was like,
stand-offish I was,
I was not expecting that. And she was not expecting
Jessica: that. But in the end, I was our first meeting. We all, we became best friends in the city. We got engaged within a month of each other, married. Each other found out within a week of each other 13 years into our marriages, that our husbands had been having affairs and recovery for each other.
So we ended up getting divorced at the exact same time. So that was kind of like that sort of story by thinking individually in terms of our backgrounds. So I was a TV producer, a network news TV producer for 22 years and then transitioned out. When I got married the second time, a little after, around the time that I got married the second time, about seven years ago and have just been working on like, you know, wellness and things like that since then, um, I'm a huge advocate of essential oils.
They really made a [00:03:00] huge difference for me in terms of stress and stuff after my first divorce. Um, so that's the business that I've been in and then ever since our divorce. We've been talking about the need for a better platform for women going through divorce. There just weren't enough resources without an agenda that seemed supportive and uplifting.
Everything seems really ominous and scary. And like you're already scared. Or when you're getting divorced, there's so much fear around it. Like we don't need anybody adding to it. We need people telling us that it's going to be better down the lie. Like divorce sucks. No matter how you cut it, no matter what.
So it could be a little while before you are on the other side, but there's life and hope on the other side. And that's sort of the purpose behind why we created Ex Experts.
T.H.: And then for me, I was, this is really my career really launched right after my separation. I've always [00:04:00] been super scrappy online and stuff.
And I got myself a job with a media company who asked me to start an events division. And I was like, well, I got three kids under eight. I mean, I can put together a party. I like parties. And I, behind that, I have my masters in marketing and strategy and stuff. So, um, I started an events division and then USA today bought them.
Um, and then I scaled the events that I created locally on a national level. So it was, it was cool. Like I really loved it. And, um, like Jessica said, when we were going through, we had each other, but there was nothing out there that sounded. I would, I was scared to listen to anything that was out there. So I just paid a lot of money to a lawyer and it took me four years to get a divorce.
And I did all the things that I'm sure you tell everyone not to do. And that's what we tell everyone not to do, but at least it's me telling you not to do it. You know what I mean? I'm not, I'm not, anyone's scary. I'm telling you that this didn't [00:05:00] work. It's not going to work. There are other options for you.
My divorce took four years. So at the time of our separation, it was not a good time for me. I was thrilled to be out by the way. I actually told her that she saved my life that day, but I had three kids. And so as much as I want to run for the border, I got three kids. So. And we revisited it. I was ready for a transition away from events and I'm, I just, there is so much stuff out there.
I would actually be more scared now looking online than back 13 years ago when we were looking for resources. So we just, we just built it. And Ex Experts is a place where we aggregate, um, amazing experts, industry professionals like yourself, who you need in order to go through the process. But also we like experts like us in 42% plus of the population who knows better now and wants to share the lessons they learned.
And you [00:06:00] know, what, if you don't resonate, we have tons of voices of other people, men and women who people can relate to now.
Billie Tarascio: Yeah. That's fantastic. That is a fabulous, wonderful success story and men and women by and large experience divorce differently.
Jessica: Very it's very
Billie Tarascio: interesting because I am not, I don't know.
I tend to not want to put men and women in specific buckets. Um, however, generally speaking, men and women experienced divorce very differently and women are thrilled to be divorced, but financially worse off.
Jessica: Yeah, generally speaking, I think that's very accurate
Billie Tarascio: And men are financially fine and emotionally bummed and they would prefer to be married and they wished they would have been better husbands,
Jessica: generally speaking, or they're remarried
Billie Tarascio: and they just needed to be married.
So for women. Um, how, how do you help them [00:07:00] tackle that piece? The financial piece
Jessica: we have on our website, um, we have the information that anyone would need divided into different counties. We have five different buckets, my divorce, my family, my wallet, my stuff, and myself. So any questions or concerns that anybody has that relate to finances at all?
When starting the divorce process or going through the divorce process? It's easy to go into the, my wallet section and see whatever article or podcast that resonates with whatever the issue is that you're dealing with. So he had everything like, you know, had a budget, you know, do you need a forensic accountant?
Should you stay in your marital home? Anything about what your financial picture looks like? We have available there. I mean, everyone's in different stages and everyone's financial different, you know, situations are different. So we recognize that even among all of the similarities that people have with the divorce.[00:08:00]
Our divorces probably looked very similar on the outside. We were similar age, both have young kids, our marriages look the same and we would travel together and do all the things together. And both of our husbands had affairs, but the fact that our husbands were totally different people and totally different personalities made our actual divorces very, very different.
So we can put out the information. We know the issue is that may be coming up because they're issues that we dealt with. And so however someone is going to be able to handle them will depend on their own financial situation, but we have a lot of different financial experts with a lot of different perspectives and a lot of different tips and advice that will work for people depending on where they are in their situation.
T.H.: You know, you don't, you don't know what you don't know. Right. So we're putting information out there that might resonate. And even if you're not in that [00:09:00] spot, knowledge is power. So we've also found that not only are women struggling financially more, but they're less literate. I mean, they literally don't know.
And that's the majority, again, not everybody, but many women are just not. Invested or interested in understanding how to financially support themselves and what it means when you're going through a divorce, what you're entitled to, and, and even just the definitions of the money and how they make relate to you.
So we have put that information out there so that we can educate women. So that they can make smart decisions and maybe go and speak to a financial advisor or anyone, but at least walk in and have, have a plan in their mind to see if this is something that they need for themselves.
Jessica: It's really scary when you're in a marriage, you know, T.H. and I got married really young.
I was [00:10:00] 23. I signed things. He told me to sign, you know, I went along with the things like, it didn't really matter. I had a good job when I got divorced. So as scared as I was, I also knew that I had a pretty solid career, you know, behind me, but I think that the problem. For a lot of women, when it comes to the financial illiteracy, it's like, they don't even know the passwords to the bank accounts.
They don't know what the bank accounts look like. They don't know what all of their investments are. They don't know where necessarily all the money is. It's those,
it's the fear of the unknown that
I think really is an issue for a lot of women. So we, and our financial experts encourage women. You have the right to access all of your financial documents.
That shouldn't be something that your spouse doesn't give you permission to do. And the truth is if you can sit down and have a consultation with someone that can actually help a lot of the fear [00:11:00] dissipate. You know, you may not, you may have to go back to work. You may not end up in the same financial situation as you are now, but at least knowing where you are and knowing how to get started so that you can start building your own foundation is really like, it can alleviate a lot of the stress.
Billie Tarascio: Absolutely. And bottom line is being personally responsible for our own futures. And our own careers is absolutely critical to thriving financially. Post-divorce,
Jessica: A hundred percent.
Even when women are in my office and they're entitled to a whole lot of money and they're going to get a lot of money and they might get a lot of spousal maintenance.
Billie Tarascio: Like if you want to thrive, post-divorce you better dive into this because it's a big deal for you to personally, how did you. How, how were you impacted financially and how did you recover financially?
T.H.: So I. Uh, my, my ex husband was gracious enough to, [00:12:00] um, take on the responsibility of paying all the bills.
Maybe like two years before he was outed for, you know, all the sad things he was doing. Um, but I always had access to it. I was always paying the bills up until only a few years before we separated and I was working and I had a 401k, so I knew what I had to do. Basically, I knew what I had to know, but I could have known a lot more.
Um, and I, he was in a lucrative job, but then also, and I'm being sarcastic again, all of a sudden he lost his job. He's making a quarter of the salary. Like can't possibly have the same lifestyle that he. Fortunately for
me, I understand his needs.
He needs a salary like that for him, or then to support me and our three children.
So I knew that that was like BS. Um, I hired a forensic accountant because [00:13:00] the extent of the lies and everything was just colossal. Now we've learned through our podcast that not everybody needs to hire a forensic accountant. So there are certain terms. And again, We educate everybody on whether or not that's the road you need to go down.
But I, I was happy to go back to work. I mean, I'm going to age myself now, but I lost my job because I was working for Arthur Anderson, which imploded when Rockette. So for all of you young ins reading the case study in college, that was me and I was on the business consulting end, but the way down, 85,000 jobs, but I was scrappy and.
I started at E-bay business at home. And then it just, I was always, I always liked having my own money, but so anyway, my ex was supporting us in the lifestyle to which we were accustomed because he had set a precedent five years out. I don't know if all that holds true today in terms of [00:14:00] determining those payments and dollar amounts for alimony, child support.
And then I did get a new job and I had this great career in events. And I was okay. I was okay. And, um, my kids were okay and I held him accountable and he stayed accountable. I will say that he stayed accountable to his responsibility financially to me and our kids. Um, there were a few tricks along the way in our divorce that he tried to pull, but it didn't work.
So today, um, I've saved up a lot of money and, uh, we are launching Ex Experts
and
we're, you know, we're moving forward. So I believe in us and financially we'll be okay. And if I have to go get another job, so be it.
Billie Tarascio: Okay. What about you Jessica?
Jessica: So when we got divorced, [00:15:00] um, I was working in TV. I had a well paying job, so, um, I think there's always the fear as a woman.
Like, you know, you're the underdog and kind of what's going to happen. So. But I, I knew, I mean that I could pay my bills at that point. Um, I definitely left money on the table during my divorce. I did not hire a forensic accountant, but for me, I had a different long-term vision of what I wanted our relationship to look like and what I wanted my family to look like.
And to me, that was like an exchange that I made, um, in. In exchange for being able to have the relationship that we have now, I waived, um, spousal maintenance at the time and I did get child support. Um, and I really like, I've always been pretty good about budgeting my money and saving my money. And I was very conscious about that.
And I feel like for the most [00:16:00] part, I've kind of maintained the lifestyle that we lived. I mean, we definitely went on bigger, better trips and I didn't take my kids on like the only vacations I've taken my kids on in the last number of years have been like to see my parents in Florida. Or on my parents are big family trips, abroad and stuff like that.
However, um, I was always too worried, like working in an industry where your show could get canceled and you don't know what's going to, you know, what could, what could happen. So one of the things that I just was really conscious about doing when I did buy my first apartment was I made sure that my monthly, they came in with my mortgage and my maintenance combined.
Fit within the amount of money that I was getting for child support. Not that I was planning to just submit my child support only on that, but I kind of, for me was a little bit of a cushion. Like God forbid, if I lost my job in the interim, while I'm looking for a new job, I can still cover my housing expenses.
[00:17:00] So that's the kind of stuff. I was
really aware of, but
I am a hustler. Also. I work my ass off and I even, when I left TV and started working, I became a certified aroma therapist. I've been working with essential oils for the last seven years.
And. I happened totally
randomly. I got my real estate license, like eight years ago, again, as kind of like a little bit of a plan.
See if I ever needed it, but I do a couple of deals a year. I just feel like I'll do whatever it takes, but I was not going to sit back and just be too scared to move at all. And I really wanted to set an example for both of my kids, but in particular, my daughter. You don't have to rely on anybody else to make your own money and to do your own things.
You can do it yourself. You just have to be responsible about it.
T.H.: Jessica has like three jobs and that has nothing to do with being a mother. By the way, [00:18:00] today I'm a real estate broker. I'm showing it apart. No. Now we're working on Ex Experts. Now I've got a doTERRA that, I mean, she gives everything like 500%, which is she treats it like.
It's everything.
Jessica: And I just moved, I bought a new apartment after my second divorce and it's been under getting gut renovated over the last seven months and I just moved in last week. So I feel like all of my hard work has paid off.
Billie Tarascio: Wow. Okay.
Okay. So what, what you're saying is so important, and I want our listeners to hear this no matter where you're at on your journey, even if you think maybe down the road, 10 years from now, you might get a divorce.
Starting right now to take responsibility for your career, your earning capacity, your spending habits, understanding finances will be critical to your, your future independence, your choices, your happiness. It's just, it's absolutely crucial. The next [00:19:00] thing that I want to ask you about is I have heard that it takes people anywhere from three to five years, post divorce to
truly feel normal.
T.H.: I think that's probably accurate. I mean,
I, first of all, I don't know what normal is and it depends on where you were in your marriage. It depends. Right? A lot of things I can speak for myself and say that literally the day I got the phone call. I was out. She took, I told her she saved my life that day and the old me just like filled my body again.
I was like an empty shell for so many years. All of a sudden, I was back. I was clear. I was go let's. This is the plan call here. You know, get shit together. Like you've been waiting for this moment for so long. Like it's here.
Billie Tarascio: You were free.
Jessica: You were face
Billie Tarascio: free. You were excited to move
T.H.: forward
with. [00:20:00] So I was, I was already there.
I had already put in my three to five years before I got the phone call. Um, and, but I, what I will say is what does take and it's different for everyone. Anyway, I never sat in a pit of pain. I, I was already in pain like that was so I didn't have to grieve. I was awesome.
But I have three kids. Right? So, and also like, there was a lot of grasping with a lot of things, like the extent of the deceit from this man who was the father of our children and married to me, like was just mind boggling.
So dealing with all the, are you kidding moments? Um, and also the growth for myself taking responsibility for being in a marriage where I was treated like crap. Every time [00:21:00] I heard his voice or I knew he was in the room or the bad energy, like how did I let that happen? So I think everybody's. Path takes different time, a different amount of time, but it, every day there's always a little glimmer of something.
So I would say that it all depends on how much you're going to open your eyes, how much you're going to take responsibility for yourself so that you can move forward. Because if you don't, you won't and then. You might never, I mean, Susan and Godfrey posts all the time spoke somewhat 27 years out. Who's still like enraged and filled with anger.
Like that's only hurting you. That's not hurting him or her. They don't give a crap. It's all on you. So you figure it out. And if you want to be leave for the rest of your life in an opportunist way, like Jessica and I have, and like really like taking all of the little nuggets of joy is making us [00:22:00] enjoy where we are now and feeling so.
We just were just in a great place because we've allowed ourselves and forced ourselves to base a lot of truths and, but open your eyes to what's really awesome too. Yeah.
Billie Tarascio: My experience was not, um, not unlike that, where I was by the time we got divorced, I was thrilled to be getting divorced,
thrilled. It still took, it was almost like I felt like I was getting out of college again, because I still had to rebuild my life.
So I had to rebuild like what that looks like now as a, as an adult, single mom and where to live. And it was, it was not like I immediately bought a house. So it was like, it just took a long time to
kind of really settle. Yeah. Did you find that?
T.H.: Well, let me just say. The see the joy in what you just said that I see those are your choices now.
Billie Tarascio: [00:23:00] Oh yeah. Making those decisions
T.H.: like that feels really
freaking awesome. Definitely. And if you don't feel like doing this or going and living in this neighborhood or whatever. Awesome. You don't have to ask anyone's permission or feel like you have to it's you trust your gut. So I just, I already see like it's hard and everything is baby steps.
We're 14 years out now, but it took thousands and thousands of baby steps to get where we are. But those are already like, that's huge. That's on you. And what a privilege that is that you get to make those choices.
Jessica: I think for me, Like if I have a little bit of a different experience, because I was able
to get out, like he was the bad guy.
Not that I was like being that person. Cause I really wasn't. Cause, cause we really do have a great [00:24:00] relationship, but I think that I was just about to start a new job. Like literally in three days I was starting a huge new job for me and I really had to get. That Monday morning and go to work at this new job crush it.
And I really couldn't focus during the day. I'm like, whoa is me. Right. I had to really be immersed in what was happening and getting that show on the air. And I felt like I really did a great job. And so I think that in terms of like how I felt normal, like professionally. I felt like I was killing it and that helped me definitely get through my days.
Like I didn't, I really wasn't moping. And I, and I really wasn't. I didn't have the time almost to kind of like fall into that level of despair. Not that that's my personality. Anyway. I think that. But emotionally, you know, I had met him when I was [00:25:00] 18 and I got divorced when I was, we broke up when I was 36.
I literally been with him half my life. And I didn't know who I was if I wasn't a part of Jessica and Darren, like we were together all those years, we like grew up together. So it was really hard for me in terms of like, Being able to navigate that part. Like I can, I'm a capable, educated person. I'm able to take care of my kids and like do the things that need to be done.
And I'm very pragmatic about things. And I was able to also be like, look as hard as it is for me. Like millions of people get divorced all the time. This is not the biggest problem in the world. You know? Like everybody's healthy. Thank God. Um, For me, it was a transition of like going through the divorce, but also solidifying this new relationship.
But he and I were going to have that I really wanted to be able to have. And I think to your point, like the three to five years, even though I was forcing [00:26:00] myself through the awkwardness in the beginning of like doing holidays together, there were things that I still genuinely enjoyed and was able to do, but obviously it was different, you know, he'd been having this affair and like now this other person was at my kid's birthday parties and whatever.
But like, I forced myself to make it through those situations because I knew that eventually it wouldn't feel so awkward and it wouldn't feel so forced and it would be much more comfortable. And I would say it probably was in that like three, probably closer to the three-year range, where I felt like we could legit hang out and laugh and have a good time and get along.
And like, I felt okay about it. I wasn't, I wasn't, you know, upset about what had happened anymore. I was kind of like it happened and now we'll get like all the great opportunities I haven't had.
Billie Tarascio: That's really interesting because people really struggle with what you're talking about. Figuring out how to transition from being in a marriage that is unhealthy that's [00:27:00] braking to a co-parenting relationship.
That's healthy and functioning, and that does not happen overnight. And sometimes those birthday parties in those holidays can be. Not a couple might not be ready for that right away. So it's interesting that you were able to transition
immediately.
Jessica: So it's not that I was. And again, it was awkward. It immediately, it's not going to say that it was like, you know, all great immediately, but there was something.
So I grew up in a time where there weren't, my parents are still together. Teachers, parents are still together. I grew up, um, in an area and in a time where. I did not have a lot of friends that came from divorced families. There may have been a lot of unhappily, married family, but very few people were divorced. So I only really remember like two girls that I grew up with. His parents were divorced and in, and, and for one in particular, and I don't know why this whole, we stuck with me.
Um, every time I saw her mom, [00:28:00] Bitter and pissed and unhappy and miserable. I don't know if it had anything to do with the divorce. Her mother may have just had that kind of a personality. However, she was always. Bitter and mean and miserable. And I also remember that this girl really did not have a good relationship with her dad.
He was literally never around the mother, basically had both the kids all the time. I don't remember if the girl's dad was like after bat mitzvah. I don't think that he was at her high school graduation. It was like bad. They really didn't have a relationship. And I remember when I first found out that I was getting divorced.
When I grew up, um, there weren't a lot of kids that I knew whose parents were divorced. My parents were still together and it just, I don't think it really just wasn't as common back then. There were probably a lot of really miserably, unhappy married couples, but not a lot were divorced, but for some reason I had a friend.
whose mom, always like stuck with me most of my life. And I really don't know why she was one of the two friends that I had. His parents were divorced and [00:29:00] every time I saw her mom, her mom was miserable and bitter and angry. And the truth is that may have just been her personality. I really don't know. It may not have had anything to do with the divorce, but that's what she was like all the time.
I've also know that this girl did not have a good relationship with her dad. The mom basically had the kids full time all the time. The dad, I'm not sure that he was at her bat mitzvah. I don't think he was at her high school graduation. He really didn't have a lot of contact with the kids. And for some reason, his soon as I was getting divorced, that was like the memory that I had. And all I could think to myself is that is not what I want my kids to have. I want my kids to be able to have as similar as an upbringing, as I had, where my parents were still married, I want them to have happy birthday parties. I want us to be able to celebrate holidays together.
I want us to be able to do things together so that my kids don't feel like they have to choose, or that they don't feel like they're being disloyal to one or the other by wanting to be with the other one [00:30:00] like that. From the very beginning. I was like, I have to make sure that that's not what my life looks like.
I'm not a miserable bitter person anyway, but I was kind of like, I have to do this for them. So within five months of our separating, I spent the Jewish holidays with him and his family because that's where my kids were going to. And I felt like I could spend it with T.H. and, and not be with my kids, but I also knew like in weird circumstances like that, The more you put it off and the less you push through, the more awkward it gets and it gets harder later.
So yes, I saw this woman at my kid's birthday parties. And what I did was I gave her a hug because I didn't want my kids to see the tension. My kids were two and four and I didn't want them to like, I feel like there was anything wrong. I just always wanted them to feel comfortable when they were around all of us.
And so I really did take the high [00:31:00] road and it wasn't always easy, but it really worked out exactly the way that I wanted it to. So I'm very glad that I did. I mean, don't get me wrong. Like we had our arguments over the years and we are divorced. And even when you're married, you're arguing with people, but like, I feel like.
Despite the cheating circumstances. He is a good guy. There were a lot of things about him that I could still appreciate, even though the end of our marriage. Wasn't great. We had a long, great run together. And for me, I really focused hard on the last couple of years, not being good does not negate the first 15.
That were fantastic. That was kind of the mentality that I had. That's what I held on to. And that's what helps me be able to get through it.
Billie Tarascio: So, were you ever heartbroken? Cause I'm not hearing any heartbreak.
Jessica: Sorry. When I first found out and it was like presented in my face, literally we [00:32:00] were supposed to go away for the weekend, the next day with friends of ours, from college.
And I said to him, I'm not going, you're going with the kids. I'm going to stay home in the city by myself. And I crawled into bed and I cried for 48 hours. And then I had to get up and go to my new. So it was devastating for me. I mean, I really felt like I didn't know what my identity was without him.
It's not that I wasn't heartbroken. I was, but I think that I was also like, look, this is life. Like I have to move through it. So I didn't spend a ton of time being morose about it. I have had many crying spells and moments over the years where I've felt like, you know, He's the reason why I don't have the family that I always dreamed of, you know, like when, and I've had some really bad like single mom moments where he hasn't been around and I've been like, this is not what I thought my life was going to be.
And it's not fair [00:33:00] that this is what my life is, because this is not what I signed up for. I've definitely had those moments, but. I also feel like the tension in the marriage the last couple of years now, knowing based on the fact that he had been cheating, like that's not what I would have wanted to live in for the next 50 years.
And even though he was very remorseful and was wanting to make an effort to make it work and stay together, kudos to those who. I'm out like that. No, that to me, that's the deal breaker. How, sorry you have an affair. I'm done. So the heartbreak for me, I was able to like compartmentalize it and be pragmatic about it and like, yes, it's horrible, but there isn't anything I can do about it.
I can't change it. So I need to figure out how I'm going to get through it.
Billie Tarascio: How did you both find out about
the affairs?
Jessica: We both got phone calls, coincidentally from the women, but totally different stories. [00:34:00] Mine. My ex was developing a real estate, um, doing a real estate development in the city and he was staging the apartment and she had called my apartment one night saying that she needed, she said she was someone else that she needed access to the apartment to put in some artwork for the staging, which totally sound legit to me.
So I brought him the phone. He didn't know what she had told me though. And I didn't, I wasn't suspicious. I just handed him the phone so that he could have that conversation and give her the code to the building. But the conversation wasn't anything about the real estate development? It was like, no, I'm not going out tonight.
Like I'm tired. And I'm like, I just sat there listening. And when he hung up, I'm like, who the hell is that? And all of the prior, like information and suspicions that I had just all converged at that night. And I woke up the next morning and I'm like, we're getting divorced.
Billie Tarascio: So he never told you, you, you just, you were just like, I know.
Jessica: Right. And he denied it. He denied it for a couple of days and I was like, I'm out. I know the fact that I don't [00:35:00] trust you. And I don't believe what you're saying. Speaks louder to me than. It doesn't matter what you're telling me. I know. And then over time, much more information. He did start divulging a lot of information and there was so much more to it.
T.H.: We're uncovering stuff because they were traveling with their girlfriends together. So as I was going through the bills, I'm like Jess, we missed this and we missed that and they were doing this and they were doing that. And, you know, I know
Billie Tarascio: I love Jessica that you had the confidence to listen to yourself and trust your intuition.
Jessica: It took me a long time though, because when I think back now, it's like whatever. I started having those feelings before that, I just think I wasn't ready. And for all of the people who are in marriages and especially if there's infidelity and people are like, how did you not know? Oh my God, I had no idea. Like, you don't have no idea. You just aren't ready to face it. My kids were two and [00:36:00] four, almost two and four at that time of the phone call.
And I think I was ready. I was just ready.
Billie Tarascio: And what about T.H.? How did you find it?
T.H.: I was picking up my son who was only four from school. And this woman called to find out if I was still married and she basically verified that she'd been having an affair with my husband for four years. Um, she lived in California, so he was basically living a double life.
And, um, I mean, I, as I said before, like she saved my life and. Uh, but I, I knew, but I, you know, even to this day, I try to figure out like, why don't I just walk away? I'm I'm like super strong. I mean, I don't know who that woman was in that marriage, you know, for the last four to five years of that marriage, I don't know who she was.
She was someone [00:37:00] who was going through a slow burn, verbal abuse, emotional abuse, and him not being around was great. I have a, on, I have a bad energy. And if the ask anybody, anything, go out with friends, not worry about anything. Um, but, uh, For me, I wasn't unhappy. It was the greatest day to never be married to him again.
And I did tell him that one, once I got like my ducks in a row and everything, I called him and he was annoyed. Of course. Cause I called like seven times. It took for me to answer the phone. You would think you'd answer the phone when the mothers, your child, children is calling you multiple times. But anyway, he goes, who told you?
Like that was his concern. That was the first thing he said to me. I told you, I was like, oh my God, who are you? Who are you? And go away. Buh Bye., um, I [00:38:00] did get upset though, many times during my divorce, which took four years because it's the man that he is. Because of the extent. And, and I, then I was like looking at myself and just like getting really upset that I was being dragged through this.
And for anybody like litigation is, is really just the worst answer. And we were paying and preparing for that to happen. It didn't because of course we settled that morning, but. You know, it's a humbling experience being questioned about your education, your earning capacity. I went to an employability expert.
It's a master's degree, so I can make how much money where's the job. Right? Why don't you do something helpful here? Give me the, show me the job listing that matches up with what you've decided and then being questioned. I had custody experts. I had to hire, I was being [00:39:00] questioned. He wasn't around for four years.
So now you worried about your kids welfare? you put into hell on the tone of my voice. As, as this conversation goes on, that there are certain things, those were the things that upset me, had nothing to do with him. It was just the way I was being treated and questioned as a mother and a person. There was upsetting in the divorce process.
So that's one of the reasons divorce sucks for me was the process really could just do a toll on your, on your confidence.
Billie Tarascio: Well, ladies, we're out of time and I know we could keep going for ever, but tell, tell our listeners about at
Ex Experts and how they join and how they access
and how that.
T.H.: So ExExperts is a free resource online E X E X, P E R T s.com.
We do run a podcast called divorce, et cetera. We're on our second season right [00:40:00] now and have over 60 episodes of everything between your family, your actual divorce. Uh, your money yourself and all the stuff that you accumulate and what to do with it. And then we tell our stories and we have voices from other real life experts of what we wish we knew and how we could have done things maybe differently.
And what we've learned since. So we are your community in terms of listening to a podcast, reading an article, reading the transcript, we are available on Instagram every single day. We're doing like fun tricks on Tik TOK, but there is meaning behind all of it. Um, and so you can find us wherever you consume information, but eEx Experts.com is where you.
Billie Tarascio: Okay. All right.
I am a huge fan of Tik Tok. So how do I, what's your handle there
Jessica: at ExExperts. It's spelled out EXEXPERTS.com.
Billie Tarascio: Sounds fabulous. All right. Well, thank you so much. And if you enjoyed this [00:41:00] podcast, make sure to like the episode, rate the episode and let us know if you want any additional topics as always.
We respond to what you, our listeners want. So thank you so much for being here today and have a wonderful day.
Jessica and T.H.: Thank you.