How do you know if a relationship is toxic? Finding out if you're in one, figuring out if you can set boundaries and fix them, and then navigating a co-parenting relationship after the relationship is over is all part of what Dr. Heidi Brocke helps her clients with.
In today's special episode of Modern Divorce, with Family Law Attorney Billie Tarascio, you'll hear Dr. Heidi's explanation of the toxic elements of a relationship, including her own. She shares the free test you can take on her website at CoachingwithDr.Heidi.com for an analyisis of your situation, and how to navigate the common issues that plague both men and women in toxic relationships.
How do you know if a relationship is toxic? Finding out if you're in one, figuring out if you can set boundaries and fix them, and then navigating a co-parenting relationship after the relationship is over is all part of what Dr. Heidi Brocke helps her clients with.
In today's special episode of Modern Divorce, with Family Law Attorney Billie Tarascio, you'll hear Dr. Heidi's explanation of the toxic elements of a relationship, including her own. She shares the free test you can take on her website at CoachingwithDr.Heidi.com for an analyisis of your situation, and how to navigate the common issues that plague both men and women in toxic relationships.
Toxic Relationship Survival with Dr. Heidi Brocke
Billie Tarascio: [00:00:00] Hello. It is Billie Tarascio with the Modern Divorce podcast. So exciting today for our topic and our guest. Really, we could talk for hours and hours, but we're going to be talking about a topic that you all are very, very interested in. Toxic relationships, narcissistic relationship. Finding out if you're in one, figuring out if you can set boundaries and fix them and then navigating a co-parenting relationship after they're over, this is something that many of our listeners are dealing with.
And we have an expert here today with us, [00:01:00] Dr. Heidi Brocke. Welcome to the show.
Heidi Brocke: Thank you. I'm super excited. This is, this is really my first getting to speak to the divorce, the divorcing. I mean, I'm sure that other people, you know, other podcasts, but like, that's exactly your, you know, where you, where you're at.
And, and I love, I work with a ton of people that are going through divorce. So this is, this is how to be kind of excited all week. Fantastic.
I'm so happy to hear that. Okay. So then if you're not typically talking to the divorce community, is it just generally more generally to the relationship community or who do you
usually talk.
Well, I just meant I've never been on an attorney's podcast before. So, so basically, um, I mean, I call myself a toxic relationship awareness and healing expert or specialist or whatever you want to call it. Um, where my training came from, my training actually came from experience. [00:02:00] Uh, my doctor title is from, uh, 25 years in chiropractic, which I loved and I was, I was fine.
I was fine at it. Um, but a few years ago, I got, this is going to sound terrible. I felt like I could adjust people in the dark with my eyes shut. I kind of was, I was reaching that stage. Everybody reaches that in their career where you're like, okay, I gotta do something else or I'm gonna, you know, um, so I started coaching and I, I started coaching in making yourself a priority and
you know, because I knew from my past I had not been in a position that I could be priority. And slowly as people were coming to me for this priority coaching, I accidentally started using examples from my past. And I realized that the people, most of the people that were coming to me for learning how to make themselves a priority had come out of relationships, very similar to my former marriage.
And so I just dragging myself. Um, cause I, I [00:03:00] didn't talk about it when I was in it. I didn't talk about it for four years after I was out of it. And so when, when I had a business coach that said, yes, that's what your coaching is like. And I was like, I definitely don't think that's what I'm coaching it, but I started just throwing some stuff out there and people wanted this information.
So, so this is a six year business now and I was able to completely retire from healthcare, um, about a year and a half ago. And so I actually coached people in this full-time now. Okay.
Billie Tarascio: Okay. So you are a specialist and an expert in toxic relationships and narcissism. Is that, is that right?
Let's start with what is a toxic relationship? How do you define that?
Heidi Brocke: Okay, so I chose the word toxic six years ago before toxic was everywhere on every app that you open on your phone. Right? And the reason I chose toxic toxic is not a diagnosis, toxic [00:04:00] it's a blanket phrase, and it's a blanket phrase that I use because basically the definition.
Any a toxic relationship is any relationship in the status that it's in that may be unhealthy for you mentally, physically, or emotionally. And. W you and I, when we think of toxic relationship, we probably immediately think of the intimate relationship or the marriage relationship or the spousal relationship.
But when you think about toxic relationships there, we have friendships. We have family circles, we have social circles, we have co you know, coworker situations and the, so the toxic relationship is all of those. Um, and when I, when I started this, I really thought I was going to. Ladies get out of emotionally abusive relationships.
And now I have worked with hundreds of people on every different type of relationship. So that was a, that was a surprise to me, except what's not a surprise to me is the toxic personality, [00:05:00] regardless of the extremity, you know, the extremists of the toxic. They're all motivated by the same thing. So it doesn't, it doesn't really matter what the dynamic of the relationship is because how I teach people to handle it and to get out of it is the same, regardless of which type of relationship it is.
Billie Tarascio: Okay. So many questions, but let's start with your marriage, the inspiration for all of this. Like what did that look like?
Heidi Brocke: So I grew up in a little tiny dairy community in the middle of Montana. And it was a community small enough that everybody went to the same church and everybody went to the same school.
And I grew up in this little community where everybody knew everybody and everybody protected everybody. And then I decided. To leave that little community and, and go out into the world and pursue my career. Right. And [00:06:00] I would have never known there was people like this out there. And I, I thought everybody in the world was like everybody I grew up with.
And so, um, so it really blindsided me. I met my former husband while I was in grad school. Um, and there was red flags the first day, really. Yes, absolutely. 100% looking back there was, um, and it was kind of. I am. I hate using this word, but I'm gonna use it cause your listeners know exactly what I'm saying.
I was a people pleaser. You know, I went into healthcare because I'm a fixer, I'm a helper, I'm a supporter. You know, I'm a conflict avoider. I'm a peacekeeper. I'm the, I'm the type of personality that just, that gets my fulfillment out of life with helping and making other people feel better. You know, I don't want to be the bad person.
I don't want to hurt feelings. I, and so, so a constant push of, Hey, do you want to go out with me? And I said, no, three times by the third ask, I was like, okay, well, [00:07:00] I don't want to be the bad person. And so long story short, first day, second day ta-da, I'm married , ta-da, I have a kid, you know, because I, I, and there was a lot of steps along the way.
I didn't want to marry him. I told my dad, I didn't want to marry. My dad told them no, it was, it was. Weird thing that I had never, ever experienced before in my life, but there was a, a strange feeling for me to make sure I kept him happy regardless of how everybody else in my life that supported me felt about it.
And, you know, before I knew it, we had a business together. We had two kids, we had property, we had all of this stuff and by that time he had girlfriends, I was completely. Stuck. I felt like I was stuck. I was financially stuck. I was emotionally stuck. I was, you know, I was stuck and, um, it continued to get worse and I'll, I'll kind of get into this a little bit later when I say it continued to get worse.
Um, I [00:08:00] started losing myself. I started losing my voice, uh, by the time I actually left, I don't think I even looked up. You know, I walked with my head down. I never laughed. I never talked. I had no friends. I didn't keep him in communication with my family because all of the stuff that made me me caused conflict with him.
So I would quit doing everything in order to keep him happy. So I, I had this little world around me where all I did was okay. It's Tuesday. My goal for Tuesday is to get through Tuesday.
Billie Tarascio: Wow.
Heidi Brocke: Okay. And then when you get up Wednesday morning, your goal is to get, is to get through Wednesday. So you don't, when you're in these types of relationships, you don't really have time to pay attention to what, what do I want out of my life?
What makes me happy? What? Because, because you constantly have to have your attention on them and, and really try to stay one step ahead of them to predict their behavior. So I, so, so basically I woke up one morning, looked in the mirror. I had blonde hair because three [00:09:00] weeks after we got married, he told me, he wished he married a blonde.
So for 12 years of my marriage, my hair kept getting lighter. I kept trying to stay skinny, so he wouldn't have a girlfriend. And, and I remember looking going, I know I have no idea who you are at all. And at that point I had a, probably a nine year old and 11 year old daughter. And, um, I made the decision that I needed.
I needed to file. I need to file for divorce. So I filed for divorce and, um, It was a, a year long struggle because when, when you leave these relationships, it's not about the relationship, it's about their control over you. So I got the divorce. I was happy as a clam for one day because I was so excited. I was divorced, but- he, and now you're gonna, you're gonna look at me when I say this and you're gonna go, oh my gosh. What was the matter with you? I was scared. I was very scared. I was very frightened of him. [00:10:00] So he finally said, okay, you want a divorce? I'm writing the divorce papers and you're not hiring an attorney.
Billie Tarascio: Okay.
Heidi Brocke: And I was so desperate to get out. Okay. Do it well, he refused to, to allow us to divide the business. He, he said 50, 50 bet refused to put a parenting plan in place. So there was nothing to hold anybody accountable. Um, wouldn't, wouldn't, you know, divide any of the property. So here I am divorced and I.
Seeing and working with him every single day, we, you know, we had our own houses, but they were on the same property.
Billie Tarascio: WHAT?
Heidi Brocke: So people that listen to my podcast, they will hear me talk about the day I ran away. And, and I don't get into obviously everybody's story. Like this is ridiculous, but the day I ran away, I was, I had already actually been divorced for almost two years.
The day I ran away and it was so bad after I got the divorce that I mean, it, it almost, [00:11:00] it almost took me out. And so when I left, I actually left my practice. I signed my practice over to him. I signed the property over to him and I initially had to leave my kids in order to get away from him. And part of that was, I know it sounds awful.
And it looked awful from the outside because she just up and she just like left her kids and
Billie Tarascio: I'm sure I'm sure his narrative was brutal.
Heidi Brocke: Yes. His narrative was that we weren't even diverse, and I just floozied out and ran away, you know,
Billie Tarascio: You'd lost your mind and here he was holding it all together.
Heidi Brocke: Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, what, what really motivated me to leave?
And this sounds ridiculous is the day I looked in the mirror and I was blonde and didn't recognize myself. I thought this is the example that my daughters have of a relationship. And this is the example that my daughters have of a mom. And, um, the. Their upbringing was not good either. So it wasn't like, it was just [00:12:00] focused on me.
So, so I left, I moved four hours south. He kept my kids from me for five years. I didn't see them or talk to them for five years. And it was, it was, you know, it sounds terrible. It was the worst, absolute worst time in my life. And at the same time, I was forced to rediscover myself during that time. Cause I had.
You know, when you're in a toxic relationship, your identity is based on the people around you. When you're with your spouse, your spouse, when you're with your kids, your mom, when you're at work, you're an employee. When you're with your friends, you're a friend. And so when you get dumped into a room by yourself, after coming out of something like this, nobody's in the room telling you what, what label you have right now.
And when you've given up everything about yourself. And so I, I spent a good three and a half years just figuring out. What I liked. I had to figure, I couldn't even order off of a menu when I, when I left that relationship. And it wasn't, it wasn't necessarily because he, he was telling me what to [00:13:00] order. It was because when I would order something, he would say, now, how come you're having chicken or don't you think that's too expensive? And the toxic personality does that. So you start second guessing your decisions, because if you can't decide if you're having chicken or steak, you're definitely not going to make the decision to leave them. You know, and, and I'm, I'm kind of getting ahead of myself, but, um, that's, and that's when I started really doing the research behind.
And this is the, if, if you, if you guys don't remember anything else I say on this podcast, I started doing the research behind on what motivated his behavior, because all you can do when you're in a toxic relationship. He said this, or she said that, or they did this, or, you know, and, and you're trained to stay.
Try to stay one step ahead so you can protect yourself. I never ever took the time to go. What is motivating him? To behave like this. And so, so that is now what, what I have developed into, into the program that I teach and the program that I used to [00:14:00] coach. When you're standing in the center of an, a toxic relationship, an abusive relationship, you can't see it logically, you know, this relationship is not good for you, but as soon as the emotions get in there, It clouds your logic.
So, so what I do different than say a therapist or a counselor, I do a ton of education because people need to understand what their situation really is for them to feel powerful enough to remove themselves. Because if they don't understand it, they'll be just like me. There'll be divorced and things will, will continue the same.
Billie Tarascio: Okay. Lots there to unpack.
One of the things that I think you have said that is worth reiterating and expanding on is the divorce. The legal divorce is not the thing. It's not [00:15:00] it sometimes. I mean the legal divorce and what you're going through in terms of dividing your children, dividing your property, getting money, um, healing, your relationship, breaking up, you know, uh, separating yourself from this other person.
Like they don't always line up. You will, you want them to line up, but for you, they did not line up at all.
Heidi Brocke: So, you know what I used, I used to regret that because, because when I moved, I ended up moving $50,000 in debt because I had nothing, I didn't have a job. And he had taken credit cards out in my name, you know?
So, so some for a while I regretted not being strong enough to just continue the fight and continue to try and stand up for myself. But now, you know, when I work with people as they're going through the divorce process, I sometimes am super thankful, but that's how I do it.
Hmm, because
Billie Tarascio: you
I hate that.
I hate that [00:16:00] because I don't want any women. I don't want anyone listening to this to think that that is okay. And me as a lawyer, I'm thinking like, we, you have rights. We can advocate for you. It doesn't have to be that way.
Heidi Brocke: And now, you know, I have worked with some people that are just so tired and so exhausted that they said, you know what, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna let them have the kids.
Okay. And I will say, You can do that, but I know enough now, then I'm not going to let you do that unless it's very last resort, because I have learned the divorce process, obviously not as well as you, but I have learned the divorce process enough that now I can, I am able to talk people off of that ledge because I don't want, I don't want anybody to have to have to do what, what I did when, when I know that there's, there's a way.
Yeah, the, the toxic relationship is. It's work. It's uphill all the time. The [00:17:00] divorce process with the toxic person is exhausting. And I think that the thing that people have to remember is the reason the divorce process is such a uphill battle is because it's not about the relationship at all.
If we go back to what drives the toxic personality, this right here is the basis of, of what I teach, regardless of the level of extremists of toxicity. What drives the toxic personality is insecurity in themselves. Okay. So if you have, if we have listeners right now that are in bad situations, this is, this is what I want you to learn.
Okay. They are insecure in themselves. They will never admit that they're insecure in themselves. Okay. When we feel most secure in our life, you and I Billie.it's when Our jobs are going well. We've been at the gym three times this week. We've got a great group of friends. Our kids are doing well in school. You know, we've lost five pounds.
We look great in the dress. It's the things we put into our own life [00:18:00] that make us feel rewarded, make us feel proud and make us feel secure in ourselves. Right? Okay. The toxic personality can not do that. It doesn't matter how much they put into their own life. They will never put enough into their own life in order to feel secure in themselves. So what a toxic person has to do is they have to strategically place people in their life that supply them with the things that make them feel secure. And I usually talk about four things for them to feel secure every day, they need to feel control. They need to feel power.
They need attention and they need to admiration. So they basically get up in the morning and they go, how am I going to feel secure today? And who in my life is going to make me feel that way? So when you have people that are filing for divorce, we've cut a lot of the strings of that control and power. So, so it shifts to now I only have the divorce process to control them with and the kids.
You know, cause we look at them, they don't show up for hearings. They [00:19:00] don't turn in their paperwork. They don't okay. The whole reason for that is because they want to maintain the control and they know if they stall the divorce process and may be difficult, they are still controlling you in a way. You know?
And the other thing that, that we get sucked into is, you know, I always wondered and everybody always asked me, why did you ever marry him? You know, why did you even date him? And, and honestly, I have no idea. And when I, when I think about the majority of my clients, most of my clients are in a service-oriented industry.
So, so we feel bad because we feel like we've picked these horrible people for us. And in reality, we are targets. Our type of personality is a target for a toxic person. Cause if you were somebody who wanted to feel power and control and get attention, You would target the good kind, caring, loving fixers conflict avoiders peacekeepers.
So, so I attracted him as soon as [00:20:00] he knew that I had the personality that he could use to get what he needed. That's why he wouldn't take no for an answer when I didn't want to marry him. And when I didn't want to go out with him and he went, you know, and the six times I tried to. It was that need for self security.
And then the other very, very complicated, um, aspect of these relationships is toxic people are emotionally abusive and a lot of people don't don't realize what emotional abuse is. I think they confuse it with verbal abuse and they'll be like, they'll be like, yeah, he yells a lot and he calls names, but he does it every day.
So it's really not that big a deal. You know, what emotional abuse is, is when somebody uses your emotions. To get what they need. So if they can say, or do something that makes you happy, that makes you sad. That makes you cry. That makes you upset. That makes you feel guilty. That makes you feel frustrated.
If they can do something that elicits any emotional reaction, they feel in control of your emotions, which makes them feel [00:21:00] secure. And, and you will, you will get this as soon as somebody files for a divorce. What's the first thing the toxic personality says. I can't believe you're breaking up our family.
Okay. So when they say the, I can't believe you're breaking up our family, they are trying to elicit the emotion of guilt.
Billie Tarascio: Yes.
Because, because we don't like to feel guilty and what's the fastest way to remedy the guilt, the guilty feeling to give them what they want. And so then we go, oh, you're right. I am breaking up the family.
That's awful. Okay. Fine. I'll just drop it. You know, we are, we are so programmed to react. I have, um, there's one of my podcast episodes is called the stick Fetcher and it talks about how this emotional abuse is a slow drip. When we teach a dog to fetch a stick, it's throw the stick, the dog, doesn't go get it.
You get the dog, you get the stick, you bring it back. But all of a sudden, the dog realizes that if you go runs and gets the stick and [00:22:00] brings it back to you, he gets a pat on the head and you know, an ear scratch. So, so when the emotional abusive person starts causing reactions out of us, we realize that that's what they're wanting.
So we don't, we don't care how many sticks they throw. We don't care. Who's throwing the stick, they throw a stick, we go get it. So, so they say something, we react. They're nice on Tuesday. We're happy. They're mean on Wednesday. We're sad there, you know? And so our emotions are all over depending on, on what they want.
Heidi Brocke: Our emotions. You know, so as soon as you leave, we're so used to their reaction, giving them reactions that even through the divorce process or the breakdown, we are so conditioned to react, to keep them happy and keep, you know, keep conflict down that we don't, we don't understand that we don't have to react to them, because if we, if we don't answer that text, we're going to be in trouble, you know?
And if we don't answer nicely, they're gonna get mad. And that's a, uh, that's basically a [00:23:00] conditioned response that the emotional abuser has, has trained us us to fall into.
Billie Tarascio: Okay. Um, one of the, one of the things that I struggle with with this narrative is that.
What, what I am seeing is that you've probably got two, two imperfect broken people who get into a dynamic. And that dynamic is, you know, one person's getting their needs met, um, by. You know, sort of exploiting, but certainly early on, they're probably not intending to exploit. They they're just in their relationship pattern, whatever they've learned.
And you've got the other partner who is not a boundary setter. And so the, the snowball effect is, is pretty massive.
Um, but it's hard for me [00:24:00] too. I feel like there's always such a, you know, villain victim. It's the relationship dynamic that you're talking about, then that feels problematic to me.
Heidi Brocke: Okay. So, you know, I don't like to use the word victim, but definitely.
There is victims in abuse situations. So I get that. So I definitely will admit that I was one time a victim. I probably would've never called it that because I didn't know what I was in. I, it happened every day. I was so desensitized to it. But when you say it's two broken people that get into this dynamic, I would actually disagree that they're broken.
And the only, the only reason I say that is because. They're still both people and I absolutely 100%, know, I was not broken before I met him. And I, 100% know he has continued to be the same exact person. So it's, it's two people that were [00:25:00] created different and their personalities don't match. And the reason that is, is the re the goals in the relationship are different.
But, you know, with the beginning of any relationship is exciting. Right. You know, you're learning new things, you know, it's adventurous. Okay. So when you step into a relationship, you're looking for certain things, you're looking for companionship and partnership, and to build a family together and, you know, to grow into something that's bigger and stronger.
Right. And so somewhere along the line, in the beginning of the relationship, we say this, or we insinuate this and the toxic personality will say, oh, that's exactly what I want. Okay. Because if they said, the only reason I stepped into relationships is secure is for security and myself. Right. We would go.
Thanks. But no thanks.
Billie Tarascio: And they probably don't know
that they probably don't know why. You know, this starts a long [00:26:00] time ago for
everybody
We might be born a pleaser, or we might be born into a relationship, a family that you know, where I don't know. I don't know if it's genetic. I don't know if it's mental illness. I don't know if it's environmental, but I do know that we all get into patterns of behavior that is very difficult to break.
Heidi Brocke: So, so when we get into this relationship and they say, that's exactly what I want, we go great. And we head down this relationship road, assuming that our relationship goals are the same. Now what you just said, this is my stance on exactly what you just said. Um, and, and some people, some people think that this is harsh, but when I follow it up with the rest of the, the point, it doesn't seem harsh.
Whatever has caused the insecurity in this person is probably something that they're not proud of or probably something they couldn't control. It might be an addiction. It might be a diagnosis. It might be a traumatic upbringing. Okay. At the [00:27:00] end of the day, we don't care what is making them insecure because, because it doesn't make the relationship any healthier for you.
And so, you know, because a lot of us are fixers in these relationships. The minute we know they've had a traumatic upbringing or the minute we know that they have a diagnosis or the minute we know they have addiction, what do we do?
Billie Tarascio: Make excuses,
Heidi Brocke: make excuses. And we feel so sorry for them, you know? So, so when you're, when you're in an unhealthy situation, yes, it is sad that they've gotten to where they are.
They are also grown adults. So if they are having trouble with this insecurity, they're responsible to fix it. The problem is they would never know that the toxic personality would never realize that because they're there 100% drive is self security. So they're just placing people in their life. So you could tell them that, but they wouldn't, they would never, they would never see it.
They're [00:28:00] wired completely different than us. We sit, we sit in relationships like this and go, how come they just can't be nice? You know, how come they can't act normal? How come they say they love me, but their actions are so opposite of that. And the truth is we keep looking for ourselves in them and we are wired completely different.
And my dad, my dad, I call my dad all the time. But the, the most impactful thing he ever told me was you are never going to find inner peace until you accept people for who they are, not who you want them to be. And, and it, it really, I didn't, we didn't have this conversation until I was already out of, out of my former marriage, but it really shed a light on me understanding because as I've watched him, I have been out of that marriage for almost 14 years.
And he is the exact same person he has repeated the cycle with every single person and every single person has also run away [00:29:00] from him just like me and my daughters eventually did so. So it's very validating to me. Yeah. That, that, that is absolutely who he is. It just, it's just not, it's not healthy for me.
And I had to, I had to make,
Billie Tarascio: yes. So do you find that women in your situation tend to repeat the same patterns in relationship
to.
Heidi Brocke: Okay. I do. I do find that, but that is exactly why I do what I do. Yeah. Because, because once you become desensitized to some of this behavior, you would see it as normal. If you grew up in an abusive household, chances are you're going to step into an abusive relationship because it's, it's completely normal.
You would not know any different being in a toxic situation is like being in a roomthat stinks. When you, when you step into the room that stinks, you smell it. But if you stay in the room, the smell goes away. Right? Cause your, your body is trying to take care of you. So it desensitizes your feelings [00:30:00] so you can survive within that environment.
Billie Tarascio: Absolutely.
Heidi Brocke: And so, so what I do, what I decided that I was, I absolutely decided I was going to be the person that I needed when I was in this emotionally abusive situation. And I also knew that if I didn't learn to spot these character traits or the red flags or the tactics, whatever you want to call them. I was going to repeat it.
And, and so, so when I say I'm an educator, I teach 21 character traits of the toxic person. So when I work with people, we know that they are very aware how to spot these. So moving forward in their relationships and their friendships and their coworker situations. They first have to learn how to spot these people doesn't mean they're bad people.
It just means it's probably not the best person for you to have in your inner circle. And then, and then I teach them how they can interact with these people without allowing these people to affect that.
Billie Tarascio: It's a big deal because there's toxic people [00:31:00] everywhere. We cannot avoid them all, but we can learn how to set boundaries and protect ourselves.
Heidi Brocke: Yeah, and it seems like it sucks because first we go through this traumatic relationship and now we're the ones doing all this work while they're just out there doing the same thing they've always done. But I, I always tell people, what do you want your life to look like? I do a lot of self discovery.
You've lost yourself in this relationship. Let's get back to who you are and let's build on what you want in your life. Um, and you know, I think, I think one of the hardest things is, yeah, we can learn the character traits, but until you really rediscover yourself, You, you, you are going to always worry that you can't trust other people.
And the answer is if, if you are solid in who you are and who, what your identity is and what you stand for, the only person that you eventually have to trust is yourself because, and, and trust yourself that you're going to start making the decisions that are best for you instead of making decisions based on what other people think or how it's going to affect [00:32:00] somebody else, or if you're going to be in trouble or if it's going to cause conflict and, you know, I used to, I always tell people, I used to walk into a room and worry that that nobody was going to like me.
That's how I came out of my former marriage. Now I walk into a room and I hope there's somebody in there I'm going to like,
Billie Tarascio: Hmm. Interesting.
Heidi Brocke: You know, because I, I had to learn to protect myself because you're right. My personality is going to attract is going to attract that type of person.
Billie Tarascio: Okay. So let's talk about these 21 traits.
I want to know what they.
Heidi Brocke: Okay. Well, I, I should say I do have, my website is coaching with Dr. heidi.com on the website. There's something called the toxicity profile analysis and it's long, it's 106 questions. Um, you'll get, uh, you'll get of, of results that say you, your life has been mildly, moderately, or severely affected by the toxic traits.
And the results, the results I get that come into me in case somebody would book a call. I can see how many [00:33:00] yeses they answer in each one of those character traits. And by me seeing those results before I even talked to you on the phone, I know exactly what type of personality you're dealing with. So some of those traits never remember all of these traits are used so that the toxic person can feel control, power, attention, or admiration.
So they feel secure. It's like. The 21 character traits are down here. They use the 21 character traits to achieve those four things. So they feel secure. Okay. Okay. And it's things like criticism, criticism, toxic people feel better when other people are struggling. If I can make you feel bad, I feel better.
Which makes me feel secure. They are not going to apologize. You might get an apology. But if you do, it's always going to have strings attached. You know, they want to reconcile after you filed for divorce and they were going to take you on vacations and they're going to do all this stuff and they're going to help with the house planning and they're going to, okay.
The only reason that's coming out [00:34:00] now is because they're feeling the loss of control over you. So you'll get apologies, but they're going to sound like, I'm sorry, I got mad, but you pushed my buttons. Okay, and I'm sorry, but you is not an apology. That's making you take the blame for what they did, but we, we want to believe their words so much that we hang on the fact that, huh, they just said, I'm sorry.
You know, and then there go our emotions all over again. Um, isolation is a, is a red flag is one of the character traits. Anything that gives you emotional support, your family, your good friends, your hobbies, the things that bring you joy. Yeah, the toxic person is going to really try to push those things out of your life so that you are solely dependent on them for all your emotional needs.
You know, they'll say I don't like your family or your family. Doesn't like me, so I'm not going home for the holidays. And we would rather have conflict with those that we know love us that have conflict with the toxic person. So. [00:35:00] Stop. We stopped going to see our family. We stopped making phone calls. We stopped because we know that eventually they're going to be there.
But right now I can't have conflict with this person. When I talk to you all the time, I quit. I quit every hobby I ever had because it took too much time and it took, you know, it and really the whole. He wanted my attention. Attention is one of those four things. And when I was giving attention to something, especially if it made me happy that really wasn't going to work out for him.
And he would just be super difficult about my hobbies until finally I'm like, oh my gosh, it's easier for me to just give this up. Then you have to fight with him everyday to, to want to do it.
Billie Tarascio: Is it also accurate to say he gave you, uh, a large share of the responsibility at home and with the girls?
Heidi Brocke: All of it. Yeah. And you know, w I have a couple of different perspectives on that. They always want your attention on them. So they're going to have a to-do [00:36:00] list this long, so that you're just going through the checklist and you're getting everything done that they need to do. That way you don't have time.
You don't have time for yourself. You know, that's one of the things, the other thing is then doing household chores or them doing the parenting doesn't really get them any attention, you know, but then picking a fight or them calling names that gets, that gets attention. They don't care if it's positive or negative attention, as long as it's attention.
And this is confusing for people because on Tuesday, they're super nice and you have a great day. And we're like, oh my gosh. Today was so good. Okay. The emotion they elicited there was happy. And where was our attention when things were going good on them. Right. So you think, oh good. We're kind of in a lull.
And then Wednesday, they get up and they're mad that the coffee doesn't taste good. And how can you load up the dishwasher like that. And you're thinking, what did I do between the time I went to bed last night and got up that this different personality [00:37:00] is here. Where's your attention when they're calling you names and hollering about the dishwasher and that about things.
Once again, your attention is on them.
Billie Tarascio: Are most of the women that you work with, are they out of the relationship or are some of them still in the relation?
Heidi Brocke: Um, actually I should mention, I have a ton of men that come to me.
Billie Tarascio: Okay. Good
to know, because I have a lot of clients who come to me who have narcissistic wives, it looks different.
It's a different dynamic, but it does happen. and they are wounded
Heidi Brocke: Th yes. And, and I, I think the thing that, that holds me back is because as soon as they hear abusive relationship and they're a male, they, that is, that is very shameful to them. So for, for them to step forward and ask, ask for help, or start doing research, you know, they're like, oh my gosh, are you kidding me?
I've been in an [00:38:00] abusive marriage. I'm the masculine end of this. Um, and I think because I do a lot of one-on-one, it's easy for men to, to approach me. Um, but back to your original question, I have people in every single stage all the way through, and, and I don't, I don't necessarily advertise that I do this, but I also create exit strategies for people
Billie Tarascio: like that has to be part of the discussion.
Um, 'cause usually like if someone's in this relationship and they're trying to figure out what their options are, they'd like to save their marriage. That's, that's their preference. They'd like to have a different marriage and if not, then they need to figure out how they're going to exit and keep their family intact and pay their bills and protect their kids.
So, um, does it ever work, are they ever able to change the dynamic? To the point where a relationship that is toxic can become [00:39:00] non-toxic.
Heidi Brocke: Okay this is, this is kind of a loaded question, uh, for me, because I'm not going to be the one that says no, they'll never change and no, it can't ever change.
Billie Tarascio: I'm just asking in your personal experience, have you ever seen it?
Heidi Brocke: No
Billie Tarascio: Because they come see me, but they don't see me every week.
Heidi Brocke: Right. And I'll tell you why. I think it is. I am so adamant on the education of what is actually going on that, that I'll have people call me. Okay, Dr. Heidi. Um, my kids are 13 and 14. Can you just teach me enough that I can stay here until they're 18 and then I'll figure out what to do.
And yeah, I absolutely will do that because I'm going to teach them the same thing. I'm teaching somebody who's already gone. Somebody who's done it. And I will tell you, within six months, every single one of those people after learning what I teach them as filed for divorce. Because they're, they're so [00:40:00] confused when they're in there.
And they're so confused at what, what, what love is because the toxic personality will tell you that they love you. And we hang on those words because they said that they loved us and we, they have a really hard problem, a really hard time watching the actions, they hang on the words and they don't watch the actions.
And so as soon as I explain the little flow chart, I was just talking. I started having them observe okay. For the next week. I want everything they say and everything they do. I want you to ask yourself, which one of those four things they're seeking because ultimately it's for security in themselves.
And I will get texts that they'll, they'll just go. You have got to be kidding me. This is so easy. And so once you see it, you can't unsee it. And once you understand all of the manipulation that goes on and. There are certain, it's not like everybody's super, super toxic, you know, there's a whole different scale.
Billie Tarascio: There's a spectrum.
Heidi Brocke: So, yeah. So it just, it just depends. [00:41:00] But as soon as you understand what motivates their behavior, it becomes very clear what is actually going on. And once almost every single time that, that this has happened. They have realized that this is unhealthy and I want something better than this. And they've moved on.
I did have one lady, she went through my whole program. Um, she, uh, I don't want to say she's elderly, but she was, she was already retired and, um, they had a very difficult son. Um, and she went through the whole program and, and there was a lot of pension and there was a lot of 401k stuff that was involved.
She learned from what I taught her, how to interact with him. Here's the dynamic of his behavior. She didn't allow it effect to affect her. And she, she actually stayed and she's functioning quite well. He was, he was much more on the less extreme, toxic than some, but she, she was one that was able to take what I taught her, apply it [00:42:00] to, you know, functioning in within that household.
And she has been able to do it. Yeah.
Billie Tarascio: So that probably looks like creating a different life. No, I'm not reacting to you. Did the dishwasher. Well then do it yourself.
Heidi Brocke: Yeah. The goal is to not give them what they need, meaning not give them the feeling of control, power, attention, and admiration.
So you start pulling emotion out,
Billie Tarascio: emotionally manipulate it because we do have the ability to reject emotional manipulation.
Heidi Brocke: You know, and the other thing I should mention, I keep talking about toxic people. You need to know, we all have toxic traits. We all have the ability to, to be toxic. It's when, when these, when these traits are repetitive and they're used in a manipulative cyclical fashion.
Billie Tarascio: Yeah.
Heidi Brocke: That's when you really need to start, you know, to start looking, looking at the relationship, um, closer.
Billie Tarascio: Yeah. Yeah. [00:43:00] And ultimately, If your partner does not respect you. And if you do not feel respected, you have nothing. My opinion. That's not a relationship.
Heidi Brocke: You know, we talked, you asked me about some of the 21 character traits demanding respect
is one of the character traits of the toxic person. They're going to demand that you respect them, but they're not going to show respect in return. And, and it, it baffles me that they think they can, they can make you respect them by saying you will respect me. Yeah.
Like the same thing you can trust me. Okay. No trust and respect are earned,
right?
Billie Tarascio: I mean, that's a red flag right there. Don't tell me I can trust you now. I know I can't.
Heidi Brocke: And I, you know, I'm seeing it from a different perspective now than what I was seeing it when I was in it. So when I have clients come to me, whatever stage they're in, I immediately have to put my back where they were. So, so I [00:44:00] remember what, what it was, you know, what it was like. And, and I remember hearing things like after, after infidelity, his, his way of convincing me that things were better was he would just go, come on, you can trust me. I promise you can trust me. Okay. Like it didn't even, it probably didn't register to me at the time either, but I'd be like, okay, You know, because I, like, I hung on the word so much because I just wanted it to be authentic.
And in my head I'm like, oh, I just trusted him because he said, you could trust me.
Billie Tarascio: Wow.
Heidi Brocke: But it's, it's that it's that mind, you know, we, we are striving for them to accept us. You know, they are never going to accept us because when they don't, that keeps our attention on them. But we just want acceptance and we don't want to feel rejected and we just want to feel something so bad. That we just keep pouring and pouring and pouring into it without even, without even really realizing it.
Billie Tarascio: Well, Dr. Heidi, this has been [00:45:00] a wonderful, wonderful conversation. I appreciate all of your time. Can you tell me how long is the program? How long does the program take?
Heidi Brocke: Um, One of the things I made sure is I let the client decide because they already have so much stuff in their life that they're not controlling.
And, and I can do, I can do a program, how, however, however fast or whatever people, people can pick, how many sessions they, they get. I think the biggest thing that I do. You know, we have a call once a week to every 10 days with my private clients. Okay. That's all fine. But the emergencies don't happen at two o'clock on Tuesday afternoon when I'm on the phone.
So my private clients actually have the ability to text me between calls and the reason I do that is because I am trying to teach them how to interact. I'm trying to teach them how to respond. So if they have something that's going on right now, I just got. Co-parenting for example, I don't even say cope [00:46:00] that co-parenting doesn't exist in a toxic divorce.
It's it's literally your each parenting. And so I do a ton of work with co-parenting, but you know, they get a text and because we're trained to respond or they're going to be mad, I need to teach them how to respond without emotion. So they'll send me the text and they'll say, how should I respond to this?
And you know, it only takes a little bit and, and by next month they already know what Dr. Heidi is going to say,
Billie Tarascio: I did same thing with
my clients because it's all exhibits and they're in the exact same situation they're getting pushed. And then they have to decide, you know, do I defend myself? This is a lie.
Do I have to set the record straight? Yeah.
Heidi Brocke: And it is hard. It's off. It's terribly hard. And you know, we all have support systems, but if your support system has not been in something that's emotionally abusive, they want to understand. And so, you know, when, when they've got Dr. Heidi in their back pocket, they at least don't, don't feel like they're going through it by themselves.
And I actually just did a podcast last week for [00:47:00] you to send to your support system. I really tried to explain what it is you're living with so that they can be better supporters because they like to say. Well, why don't you just leave? Right. You know, and why,
Billie Tarascio: or why did you learn yourself to be triggered?
Heidi Brocke: Or why don't you take care of yourself? I remember when people would say, well, if it's that bad, why don't you just leave? And I remember thinking that is a great idea because I haven't thought of that except every day for the last 12 years, you know? And so, so it's just, just teaching because it's, for us, it's frustrating for the support systems too.
We live, we wear them completely out. You know. Yeah.
Billie Tarascio: It's not unlike a situation of domestic violence where a victim has a black eye and tells her support system she's being beaten, but she's not ready to leave. And the worst thing you can do as a support system to say, I'm not going to be around that couple anymore because you're isolating your victim,
but it's hard.
Heidi Brocke: [00:48:00] Yeah. And, and too, I always, I, I say this to all of my clients. They've already got people telling them to leave. You know, they already feel like they're disappointing people by not leaving. You are, you are not going to leave until you are ready to leave.
Billie Tarascio: Right.
Heidi Brocke: So in the meantime, let's get you educated and let's, let's, you know, education leads to understanding, understanding leads to power.
Billie Tarascio: Right. So you can start to make healthy choices today, regardless of whether or not you're going to leave. You can start protecting yourself, investing in yourself, believing in yourself, working on yourself. That should not wait.
Heidi Brocke: Um, um, and so that, and that's why I take people at any stage because we, we can start at any stage doing that, you know,
Billie Tarascio: Okay, so let's, where's your website. How can we find you?
Heidi Brocke: Okay, so, so I, I actually have a podcast myself. It's called, it's not normal, it's toxic. And () that's like yours. It's on all the major platforms. Um, my website is [00:49:00] CoachingwithDr.Heidi.com.
That's where you can find the toxicity profile analysis and, and you can take it without you. Don't have to book a session with me. You can get on and take it. And sometimes just reading those questions makes people. Oh, maybe I better look into this little more. Um, and then I have, I also would like to mention, I have a support group on Facebook.
It's a private group and there, everyone in that support group is going through the exact same thing you're going through. So if you feel like you are the only one on the planet that is, is having a marriage like this, because we know from the outside, they look completely different than what they, what they look like from the inside.
Um, and that, that support group is called strengths within. But I know there's more than one strength. So the cover photo is a white flower growing out of a great rock, white flower, gray rock.
Billie Tarascio: I'm joining. Can I join?
Heidi Brocke: You can join.
Billie Tarascio: Wonderful.
Heidi Brocke: And you know, people, people like to work with me on different levels and.
We'll [00:50:00] accommodate whatever works for them. They're scheduled they're, you know, finance wise, we can, we can work all of that out.
Billie Tarascio: Wonderful.
Well, this has been a fantastic podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Make sure to like subscribe and rate the podcast and as always let us know if there are other types of topics that you would like to be covered.
Definitely reach out to Dr. Heidi, take test. And wherever you're at today, know that we believe in you and things will get better. You can take steps right now today to be in a better place. Thank you so much for being here today.
Heidi Brocke: Yes. Thank you for having me. Bye.